You have a valid issue, Peter. Unfortunately, this would bring the thought about who would actually deserve to own a dog. I know my neighbor doesn't. Everyone has a right to their opinion - whether any one agrees or disagrees with you. I'm glad that everyone can rationally discuss their opinions and give their personal reasons why they feel the way they do. Thanks for your insight, too.

 Quote: peter cavallaro

thanks for allowing/hosting a rational debate, i think the public debate is good n educational in itself even if no consensus is achieved.

we can't esacpe the fact that good training is good training n bad training is bad training regardless of the tools.

it's just my personal wish that these things were a bit harder to get for the average schmo with no idea looking for a quick fix it, surely that is not too big of an ask given the potential for abuse.

Yes, it *is* too big of an ask - cripes, it's a fricken' e-collar, not a WMD!!
So after outlawing the e-collar, no doubt the prong collar would be next...and follow that slippery slope until we're all "pet companions" instead of dog owners.
Thanks but no thanks, I'll make my stand here.

Lord save us from the Nanny State and it followers!

Peter,
I don't use an ecollar; it doesn't fit well with my personality. That being said, I don't feel individuals who use the tool in a humane manner should be subject to restrictions due to the fool actions of others. IMO controlling access is not the answer.

What is the answer? There isn't one, its the nature of the beast....some people will behave responsibly and some people won't. And to completely turn your back on an effective tool that could be the difference between a dog being euthanized and a dog being trained in a way it understands is a disservice to the dog.

I favor positive reinforcement but have seen that misused too. The constant rewarding with food has led to obese dogs which is no less cruel than misuse of an ecollar. And of course someone who is constantly bribing and marking and feeding their dog as a training method is definitely going about positive reinforcement incorrectly but does that mean no one should be able to train in this method?

And Lynne to your original post I give the ecollar no more mystique than a flat collar. A tool is a tool is a tool. And my guess is there are as many people abusing a gentle leader as an ecollar. For me the choice of tools to train is based on three things. How I feel implementing the use of a tool; the effect on my dog and the effect on our relationship. If all three are positive then that is a good choice for me.

Perhaps the gentleman you wrote about is comfortable with the method because his dog is fine; it actually sounds like he is excelling and the relationship is strong. I don't know enough about Schutzhund but does the dog's demeanor as he work count towards his score? If so; I'm going to imagine with the success and high marks this team has had; he's not misusing the ecollar. JMO

Reason I brought up the dog ownership question. Just like the BSL, you'd have to have a license to own a dog. Right now it pisses me off that they try to make us by licenses to make us tell them how many dogs we have, and is just
another form of taxation. It would be a small fortune to license my dogs and they keep raising the fees, and changing it without telling anyone. Then if they discover you didn't send in the initial fee, they start penalizing you, just like missing a month on your car registration. Ok, now I'm going off topic. But you understand what I'm saying.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

And my guess is there are as many people abusing a gentle leader as an ecollar.

For me the choice of tools to train is based on three things. How I feel implementing the use of a tool; the effect on my dog and the effect on our relationship. If all three are positive then that is a good choice for me.

Fantastic points Shelia. I can't tell you how many folks I've seen give corrections with a gentle leader or halti.

To restate what you said next in bullets, because I think you said it VERY well...
How to choose a 'tool' to train with
1) How I feel implementing the use of the tool
2) The effect on my dog
3) The effect on our relationship.

I think everyone, both pet owner, working dog owner, and sport dog owners should carefully consider those points before using a new training tool.

Edited by Kelly Byrd (03/01/2011 01:54 AM)
Edit reason: grammar

Shiela - this is why I posted the question. To see what people thought. Obviously, there's a lot of mixed opinions - but overall, like you, another tool in the toolbox. The collar has worked for this guy in the past, but due to a miscorrection, now the dog is confused, and a problem has been created. This, of course, could have been caused by other methods, too. I, personally, would use a tone or pulse collar on one of my rats as she is constantly grabbing my rottie's legs and pulling her over. Then I can't reach her to correct her quick enough. So, you're right. I was more concerned about it becoming a crutch not a tool.

Peter, it needs to be pointed out that your comments on remote collars are based on a lack of experience with remote collars.

The simple fact is remote collars are the best dog training tool ever invented. They are also one of the most abused dog training tools.

With that said - once a trainer learns to train with low level stimulation the remote is a great training tool.

We use and sell Dogtra Remote collars. They have 127 stiimulation levels. Most humans cannot feel anything until the collar is turned up to around level 22. Most dogs will react with a slight reaction (IE blinking an eye) at level 17 to 20.

I find I often have my collar set to level 14. I use it to redirect the dog to get back on a task he knows how to do. It's more of a TAP ON THE SHOULDER than a correction.

If you strapped the collar on your neck and turned it to level 14 you would feel nothing. So How can this be abusive? The answer is it's not !!

I put the remote on my Mal pup (around 18 months) when he gets out of his ex-pen in my office in the morning and it comes off after his last walk at night. I seldom have to use the collar but it will always be there if I need it.


The fact is you live in Australia - your animal rights people who dont know a twit about remote collars have convinced your politicians that remote collars should be banned. The truth is thats a bloody JOKE. Dog owners have allowed a pack of fools that don't know squat about dog training to dictate how you should train dogs. This is your loss.

So please don't join the ranks of these fools - I assure you if you had access to Dogtra collars and had someone show you how to train with them you would not have the position that you have.

 Quote: will rambeau

So after outlawing the e-collar, no doubt the prong collar would be next...and follow that slippery slope until we're all "pet companions" instead of dog owners.
Thanks but no thanks, I'll make my stand here.

Lord save us from the Nanny State and it followers!

HUGE DITTO. It is so easy for some individuals to say "that should be controlled!!!" without thinking that everytime we give up even a little bit of freedom or our rights, we edge closer and closer to losing a great deal. It isn't just scary talk - it is a fact.

People are killed by drunk drivers everyday, but most of us would not say "cars kill people"! We realize it is the drunken fool behind the wheel which made the car a lethal weapon. Obviously, if cars were outlawed and every human forced to ride a bike and take public transportation, there would be no more people killed by drunken fools behind the wheel of a car. But we'd still have drunks with no respect for human life. And we would have lost an incredible amount of freedom in the process.

It is horrible when an individual or an entire group abuses a tool or a freedom which causes harm to another individual or group. Horrible. Far more horrible, in my not very humble opinion (on this one subject) is when freedom is taken away from the individual under the premise of "protecting" us when in reality it is to shift the power and control elsewhere.

I think most of us would agree that any more control over our ability to own the dog of our choice would be a negative thing. As would any more control over how we elect to humanely train that dog. There are laws currently on the book which protect against animal abuse and I'm perfectly comfortable reporting the abuse of any animal by any method be that prong collars, ecollars, leashes, etc...

 Quote: will rambeau

So after outlawing the e-collar, no doubt the prong collar would be next...and follow that slippery slope until we're all "pet companions" instead of dog owners.

It's just happened....in New York City. Anti-tethering legislation, but if you read the letter of the law, bans outright choke chains and prongs.

This is how it happens...AR's write the "anti-tethering" language in such a way that the non-doggie legislators think it is "good stuff". They pass laws without understanding the greater implications, and how intentionally ambiguous language will be abused in the hands of over-zealous animal control officers.

Tracy

So dumb.

I'm a pretty liberal person politicaly. I believe there are times that regulation is neccesary. But it needs to be done with common sense and priorities.

Maybe they should regulate a bank or two before turning on dog trainers.