OK Kent,
So now we aren't talking about PSDs and PPDs, but combat dogs? You don't know hoew PSDs and PPDs work, but you are going to tell me how to train them? Nothing that a working dog is natural, it is all a modification of natural behavior. Dogs won't naturally bite people unless they have a problem or have learned to do it. The idea that bite and release is natural has been rehashed here befor. It isn't natural, it is a sign of weakness in the dog. As dogs become more confident in their work they bite and hold. A portion of the dogs work is to be a sacrifice, if needed, to ensure the survival of the handler. it isn't pretty, or fair, but it is reality.

Your example of training a "puppy" by your method is a 14 month old dog. Why not at 6 months? That is what you have been advocating, or a you suggesting that bite work should start when the dog is older (where have I heard that before)? The idea that there are no cowardly dogs is laughable... I can show you several. We took care of a Doberman that was afraid of the dark. If she was going to use the doggie door at night we had to leave the lights on.

You say you have seen some trained dogs and weren't satisfied. How many, I have seen several hundred, some like you describe, many much better. The poor dogs came from poor training, much of it handled as you describe, very poorly, but as you describe. PSD handlers that don't like their dogs behaviors, why don't they fix the problem? Everything you describe can be trained out. The longer it has gone the harder it is to change, but it can be changed. Protective of the car? We had a GSD aggitated for the car, it was a riot. The dog would be standing next to the car playing with someone, put him in the car and he would turn around a sit on the seat as calmly as can be, until the door closed and then you would swear he was going to come through the window. Just like he was trained, the Belgian Sheep dog would just lay there on the seat and watch, just like she was trained.

How many dogs have you trained using each method. How many good dogs have you seen. I have done dogs both ways, I have seen hundreds of dogs, good and bad. I will tell you that 90% of dog problems are handler problems. If you aren't happy with your dog's behavior, fix it or have a clear idea of where you want to be at the end when you begin. It is easier.

Kent,
Where is your training facility? I have several referrals for you. Clients w/dogs that I have stupidly evaluated as having weak nerves (aka *cowardly*), so I'm hoping I can send them to you and correct my egregious errors.
Not that it matters, but I thought Rinny was a pup found in a hole in France, and not a *war dog*. Nobody knows his bloodlines, he was found w/a female littermate who didn't survive. Hollywood liked his looks, his little fear biting problem notwithstanding. But, I digress.
Josh nailed it. Dogs learn they can scare the mailman away and I personally think they enjoy the heck out of it.

A predator thats being hurt will hang on and be mangled or beaten? Thats natural? That predator won't be around long. Nothing natural about it. Where is this belief coming from? Its what humans think needs to be done. No more, no less. But thats been discussed...

Is that predator that lets go exhibiting weakness? Or fear? Or is it good judgement because it keeps them alive? Because they will let go rather than get seriously hurt. They will also not lay down their life for a member of their pride or pack. Yet a dog will for us when it could just as easily run - trained or not.

Your example of training a "puppy" by your method is a 14 month old dog. Why not at 6 months? That is what you have been advocating, or a you suggesting that bite work should start when the dog is older (where have I heard that before)? The idea that there are no cowardly dogs is laughable... I can show you several. We took care of a Doberman that was afraid of the dark. If she was going to use the doggie door at night we had to leave the lights on.


--Well Richard, I just spent considerable time seeing for myself what Kent is talking about. You shouldn't knock something until you've seen it with your own eyes. I watched with my own eyes 6 month old younsters trained in just such a fashion. It is real. It does work. You can say it doesn't but I've witnessed it with my own eyes.

Also, before anyone tells me to come back when I've trained some dogs I'm not a new kid on the block so don't start throwing crap at me about being some novice greenhorn. The difference is this. A dog may choose flight vs fight... that does NOT make him a coward. Take that same dog who was 'scared' of the dark & stress him on some of the old military obstacles... have him & his handler work through the applied stress together. You'll find quickly, he's not afraid of the dark. To me it is laughable that so many here get to the boiling point because someone dares suggest things may not be as they seem. But if you decide he's a coward you are incapable of moving his training forward.

Given the situation of our country right now... those who are training tactical dogs better damn well be training combat dogs. This ain't gonna be a picnic in the times ahead. We should be smart enough to learn from the dogs in our history not scoff at their accomplishments.

Originally posted by Catherine Amodeo:
A predator thats being hurt will hang on and be mangled or beaten? Thats natural? That predator won't be around long. Nothing natural about it. Where is this belief coming from? Its what humans think needs to be done. No more, no less. But thats been discussed...

Is that predator that lets go exhibiting weakness? Or fear? Or is it good judgement because it keeps them alive? Because they will let go rather than get seriously hurt. They will also not lay down their life for a member of their pride or pack. Yet a dog will for us when it could just as easily run - trained or not.

***** Again, show me where there are so many PSDs that face this. Yes it has happened, but the number DO NOT stack up. MOST, in fact I'd go as high as 95% get(suspects) bit, go to the ground, scream in pain and want NOTHING more than to have the dog OFF of them. They don't stand around beating the dog! Also, you forget the human handler aspect....again..you are a team. If the suspect is hitting the dog, where the heck is the handler? In some cases yes, they might not be there for a min or two, but in most cases they get there. If it's so dangerous to go near the suspect while the dog is engaged, it's probably too dangerous for the dog to be there also. People think the bite from a trained PSD is no big deal and they could fight it off, etc. I normally offer for them to come and meet my friend's 12 pound Min Pin. Just hold out their hand and let the little f$#@er grab hold. When you can sit there and take it, and tell me it doesn't hurt, come on down the kennel and we'll be happy to let the dogs work without you wearing a suit. Catherine, again, please have some idea of what your talking about before you speak. I don't care if have a question, but a if you are going to tell us how it is, please back it up. Give us YOUR answers to YOUR questions. All you seem to do is pose them and think you are correct. Yet...again...you never answer when it is put to you.

Josh you are correct - Catherine in clueless about dog training, I think she is clueless about life in general. This has been demonstrated numerous times on this web board. I have not yet stopped anyone from anyone from posting to this board but I am one step away from doing this with this women and the other people who coime here from BADEN K9 (DOGMEN). If they wish to spout there stupid, ignorant, backward opinions they can go to that web site and disrupt it. I am losing patience with stupidity.