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..... OK so lets pretend you're a cop n you're doing a suspect apprehension --- "excuse me, could you catch my dog like this.. no no.. not like that, I mean like this, n don't kick him or anything because you might ruin him"....

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This reminds me of the time I proudly told my daughter that my dog "rescued" me from under a quilt when I called his name, and she said, "So, then...........he could be an SAR dog! If the victims were conscious, and knew the dog's name..........oh, and were buried under quilts and not a building."

A decoy can ruin a dog, but not the Boerbel. Either breeders did that, or the tales were to tall to begin with. I am going with the latter.

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When it comes to a finished dog I am always somewhat amused when I hear things like "you needa be careful who you let decoy for your dog because they can ruin your dog".... OK so lets pretend you're a cop n you're doing a suspect apprehension --- "excuse me, could you catch my dog like this.. no no.. not like that, I mean like this, n don't kick him or anything because you might ruin him".... oh please. A pup maybe... but not a TRULY GOOD finished dog.

i don't think this is what you're saying, but you need to be careful here mike. i am very particular in who i let catch my dog. reason? newbies CAN ruin or hurt a good, hard, high-flying dog by not "giving" or "absorbing" the hit. this can lead to pinched nerves in the dog's neck from "jamming" the dog. do i mind if my dog "jams" his neck when biting a real suspect? of course not, but why chance it in training?

again, you're probably not talking about this, but just be careful to not jump to conclusions when someone is particular about who catches their dog...

John Haudenshield, I get your rant and I get your point, the thing with the coaching is this, that this dog is really powerful, and very few grown men can handle a dog on lead if he decides to go for it. The dog does not need this, but we have seen what they are capable of, if they are only trained to attack and not to stop, just on voice command, on an out for instance.

Will, a very valid point you made there in your second post on a handler, or decoy being able to ruin a dog, I can see that we have both seen what I am trying to get across.

When I say soft, in my experience Mal are soft when young as well, unlike GSD and ROTTIES, I don’t know how to put it in words, that way as well, same as boerboel
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again, you're probably not talking about this, but just be careful to not jump to conclusions when someone is particular about who catches their dog...

I understand, I tend to make "lighthearted comments" that don't explain my entire thoughts on a topic because I forget people are gonna read into it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The people I am referring to who have made such comments to me are more of the overly cautious paranoid type, to quote John Haudenshield, they treat their dogs like they are a "Faberge Egg", would rather avoid putting their dog into a stressful situation rather than working the dog thru it because they don't wanna "ruin the dog". Show them 3 experienced qualified decoys, n 2 of em are "gonna ruin my dog because it's not what my dog's used to working with". I guess if your dog is a Schutzhund dog you want them to always look the way the judges like to see it, but if you have a "real world" dog like PPD or Police K9, then taking a couple of bites on someone who doesn't know what they're doing shouldn't hurt the dog because that's an innevitable part of the dogs life -- now, if you train every day and the dog gets improper decoying every single time I will definately agree with you, but a good dog hitting a decoy a couple of times that didn't absorb the shock? I'd laugh if I saw a good police K9 stop biting because the last 20 street bites weren't caught properly LOL. But I've seen your dogs videos, sure looks like he can take a few bad bites here n there no problem <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just to make it clear, I'm talking about a "finished" dog here, I have absolutely no doubts that bad decoying can ruin a young or inexperienced dog. I just question what people mean by "ruin" in some cases. I can't help but think that some people confuse "ruin" with "setting a dog way back", something happens in the dogs training, a month goes by n they don't see much improvement, so they scrap the dog. Perhaps they don't have the time to "fix" the dog because they have 10 other dogs sitting in their kennel that are all capable of doing the work without the ruined dogs issue, but is the dog truly ruined beyond all repair? Maybe, maybe not.

OK Mike. Sounds like we're on the same page. You are more talking about "ruining" a dog mentally or confidence wise. I was more talking about physically injuring a dog. Psychological pressure after or during the bite is one thing. It is perfectly acceptable for a PPD or PSD to be pressured and in fact is necessary. I was more talking about the initial impact and how improperly taking that impact can injure the dog's neck. There is no psychological pressure to be given on the initial impact. That happens after the dog is on the bite and all PPD's PSD's should be exposed to that pressure, ideally from an experienced decoy.

and yes, i agree there is a huge difference between "ruining" and "setting back". as another poster implied, if a dog was "ruined" by a decoy, then i would question that dog's ability to do the work to begin with. all dogs have their breaking point and if you go over it, a good dog can be built back up rather quickly...

Depending on how much time you have to correct a "set back" may determine whether or not the dog is ruined. Bad foundational training is not something you can fix IMHO. you can put alot of band aides on it or reteach it but in the end the dog will revert back to the foundation under pressure. Maybe i'm generalizing to much here.