I listened to the podcast about using markers and I use markers when training. Is it possible to use negative markers? For instance when the dog does something wrong, I tell the dog no and they recieve a correction (obviously when the dog is ready for corrections). In the podcast, I believe Ed says to ignore the dog. Am I doing the right thing by using negataive markers?


If I am, when the dog does something wrong can the correction be delayed just like the reward can for a positive marker? For instance when the dog does something good, you mark it, then there can be a delay, if need be, before the dog is rewarded. Would it work if the dog did something wrong, I gave a negative marker, and if need be the correction be delayed (for insance if I had to walk to my dog for breaking a down from a distance).

I wouldn't use a marker to mark bad behavior and then give a correction for it. Using a marker to signal no reward is fine, once the dog gets used to it, they change their behavior to get the reward. I wouldn't use a marker and follow it with a correction everytime. Why would you want to delay it? So you can watch your dog being stressed and nervous the whole time you're walking over to give them a correction? With marker training, you give the uh uh, or no, or what ever signals no reward and start again. I would never mark improper behavior and then give a delayed correction. Corrections need to be strong enough and given at the exact moment you want the behavior to change. Marking it and delaying the correction would give a pretty ugly picture given some time to do the damage. Good question, bad idea though. If you need to correct you dog for breaking a down, put it on a long line under an eye hook in the ground or get an electric, that way you can give the correction at the precise moment they break the down, delayed corrections are worthless, marker or not.

Yes, Kevin, you CAN follow a negative marker with a correction (assuming your dog already knows the command 100% AND is old enough to progress to the correction phase of training) -- Here's how it's done:

Give the command & if it's refused, give the negative marker, at which time the dog is also allowed a moment to self-correct & comply with the command (if he decides to obey, skip any correction & give the positive marker followed by immediate praise instead) -- But if he continues to refuse AFTER the negative marker & moment of grace, then give an automatic correction without further delay...

Wow, it's really hard to articulate this sequence in writing & make sure to cover all the bases in order !!! Better for you to read through Ed's obedience articles (like Philosophy of Training & Theory of Corrections, or also get his Basic Obedience & E-Collar Training for Pet Owners DVDs) LOL

Kevin,

Yes, negative markers (some call it verbal corrections) are very useful, particularly with softer, submissive, and handler sensitive dogs. Negative markers result in needing fewer physical corrections in training. Look in Ed's "Theory of Corrections" article for an explanation of "verbal corrections."

Yes, correction can be delayed - again Ed's article "Theory of Correction" explains it.

A negative mark is used to denote incorrect behavior and witholding of reward. A negative mark is not used to to mark an incorrect behavior so you can go correct your dog later. If you want to use a physical correction, it must be immediate. This isn't a debate about using corrections or not, its about using a negative marker in the context in which he asked, so he could mark a broken down, walk to the dog and correct it. Corrections must be immediate and clear to the dog.

I wanted to add, you "could" do it, but do you want to walk back to the dog from 25 yds or so away , knowing that he's thinking about the correction you're going to give him every step you get closer to him. I don't think he's realizing why he's getting corrected anymore because he's too worried about you coming closer. Personally I'll just use a long line through a loop in the ground or electric to make the correction clear, concise and immediate.

I agree with Eric. The "Negative Marker" or "No Reward Mark" is used to provide the dog with information, not serve as a predictor of punishment. The information is "try again" and offer another behavior, not "crap here comes the punishment" and there is nothing he can do about it. A "Negative Reinforcment" however, IS the actual correction-an unpleasant consequence to a behavior offered. I believe that there are times where "negative reinforcement" aka corrections are warranted, and I think that a long line, or better yet electric is a good way to do it.

I use both a no-reward marker "Ot" and a you-better-stop-or-a correction-will-come marker "No." I call them both markers. They are both marking that a behavior has a consequence (reward, no reward, correction) and the dog responds to the marker accordingly (repeating behavior, stop repeating behavior, change behavior to appropriate one).

The dog always gets a chance to change the behavior between "No" and the correction (about 1 second) - this way it reduces the need for physical corrections as the dog recognizes it is doing something wrong and changes the behavior before the correction. The dog's reaction a change in the behavior to avoid the physical correction. The use of the word eliminates the need for the physical correction many times.

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing with different words. I simply call it a marker rather than a correction, as it marks the behavior, communicates to the dog what the consequence of the behavior is, and gives the dog the choice to stop the behavior and recieve praise/reward/play or continue the behavior and recieve a correction.