Greetingsd Folks,

I've noticed a lot of people in the German Shepherd world make claims that their German Shepherd is from West German, East German, or Czech blood lines. How can a person really tell from reading the pedigree where their dog's pedigree hails from?

I've checked out wwww.pedigreedatabase.com and while the names in my dog's pedigree appear very German I am at a loss as to how distinguish between East and West. Could someone give me some advice as to how to determine what blood lines my dog has?

Thanks

Knowledgable people can tell the difference because they know where specific dogs (or kennels) that are in your dogs pedigree come from; East Germany, West Germany, Czech, Belgium, etc. Each dogs in the pedigree also has a unique registration number, which is a good indicator of where that specific dog was born.

Not to mention the fact that if you have the ACTUAL paperwork (original pedigree, registration, etc), you can tell where your dog was born/registered just by looking at which country issued the paperwork. It may not be entirely accurate (ie, a dog with primarily West German show lines in its pedigree could have been born in a country other than Germany and have papers issued from that country, etc).

To find out where your dog was born/registered, or to find out where his bloodline comes from, the best thing to do would be to post a picture of the actual pedigree. If not, post the registered name of your dog, his parents, grandparents and great grandparents.

Ok...how does one tell from the registration number (I assume you mean the SV registration number)where the dog is from?

The only paperwork I received with my German Shepherd dog was from the American Kennel Club, which I then in turned used to register the dog with the United States of America/Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (USA/SV). As of the date of this post I am still awaiting confirmation of registration.

I assume by ACTUAL paper work you mean the original SV pedigree? I know that the dam was registerd in Germany (can not say for certain whether West or East) and the sire in Canada according to the AKC pedigree.

These two links provide the pedigree as given on http://www.pedigreedatabase.com

Sire:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/391695.html

Dam:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/329832.html

I'd like to learn how to read SV Registration numbers or where to look for a listing of kennel names in Germany if possible? I'd rather learn how to read the pedigree myself if possible than be told what it means from someone else. Could I buy a book on this subject?

Thank you.

James, the way I would read your pedigree as being west german showlines is by looking at a combination of things.

Firstly, the photos in the pedigree make it easy, the physical traits of a showline dog are very obvious, the black saddle deep red coat with the slightly curved back.

Secondly, many of the dogs have a V rating preceding their name, this is a show rating, V1 being first place, V2 second place etc. V on its own I don't know what it means, but it's still a show rating.

Thirdly, your dogs lines come out of Wienerau and Kirschental kennels which are showline kennels.

I don't know how to identify a west german working line dog other than physical appearance not being that of a showline... an east german working line dog will usually have "DDR" written under the dogs name... I don't think East german showlines even exist so that makes that easy. I'll let someone else give their tips on identifying a west german working line or a czech dog.

The V in front of the dogs name is a conformation rating. ALL GSD's in Germany must have a conformation rating, regardless of show or working line, to pass a Breed Survey. The big difference is that working line dogs usually only receive an SG rating.

V = Excellent
SG = Very good
G = Good
etc.

As for registration numbers, if the number has a SZ at the beginning, the dog was originally registered in Germnay with the SV. If the number has a CMKU in front of it, it was originally registered in the Czech Republic. Your dogs sire's number has an NE in front of it. I'm not sure, but that may be the prefix for dogs registered in Holland/Netherlands (even though he is also registered with the CKC).

The kennel names in your dogs pedigree (Kirshental, Arminius, Wienerau, etc) are West German kennels known for producing showline dogs. Kirshental is also well-known for producing dogs that actually herd sheep for a living. This would indiacte that your dog is out of West German showlines.

Finally, you have apparently registered your dog with the AKC and have submitted registration paperwork to also have him registered with the United Schutzhund Club of America (USA) and the Verein fur Deutche Shafferhunde (SV).

What is your dogs registered name and where was he born?

When I did a pedigree search on 4xWUSV Querry von Haus Antverpa the letters LOSH were in front of the registration number. I'm not familiar with them as they aren't on many of the pedigrees that I've researched. Just wondered about their origin. Also the HD-FCI was listed as B1/2. Is this the equivelent of the "a" or "a1" stamp?

LOSH stands for Livre D'Origine Saint Hubert. This is the official Belgian Stud Book. The majority of my pup's pedigree is LOSH since the sire and dam are Belgian. My pup was registered in Lebanon, (breeding done here)so my pup is KCL (Kennel Club of Lebanon)..

Thanks John <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anytime..

hello, i looked at the pedigrees in question. first of all, the SZ number is a way of counting all the gsds produced in germany. the first gsd registered was SZ1. littermates' numbers will differ by only one digit. for example, male is SZ125591, his sister would be SZ125592, and so on. On Larus, he is registered with Canadian Kennel Club. the NE in his number is just part of the number. like AKC, this is a way to generate more numbers. V stands for Vorzuglich, which means excellent in german. VA is Vorzugliche Auslese, which means excellent select, and can only be given at the national comformation championship. the number after the V or VA is the placing of the dog in that category. VA1 is the national champion (although germans have always referred to this as the world champion, or welt sieger)While it is true that many working dogs get lower conformation ratings, it is not desirable. Fero Zeutener Himmelreich, and many other top working dogs, were KKL1 and V-rated. KKL stands for Korklasse and it is a breeding license. a dog receives KKL 1 or 2. 1 means highly reccomended for breeding and 2 means reccomended for breeding. there are many generalities used when discussing work versus show lines, especially in this country. in germany the goal is to produce a good-looking working dog, or a good-working show dog, whichever way you want to look at it. like here, there are two camps in the SV: work vs. show, and they are forever squabbling over their differences. it's a shame; if we could learn to get along and be less critical of each other we could work together to produce even better dogs. max stephanitz, who created the gsd, said "utility and beauty". he put utility first because he felt a dog's ability to work was crucial, but he did not exclude beauty. he intended the gsd should be both, not one or the other.
Kirschental is not a show kennel, but rather a herding kennel. he produces beautiful dogs to be sure, but invariably the herding champions are from his kennel or his lines. SchH means schutzhund and there are three levels: 1,2,and 3. HGH means herdegebrauchshund which is herding dog title. it is not easy to get this title. it is equal to a schH title as far as qualifying dog to be bred.
NHSB is the netherlands.
Wienerau kennel belongs to Walter Martin. breeding shepherd for over fifty years. the year his dog Zamb won the sieger show, he also won female siegerin, youth male sieger, and female youth siegerin. a unique accomplishment!Zamb was gorgeous, by the way.
Zamb is in the pedigree of the male; he is linebred on him 5-5, which means he appears in the 5th generation on both the father and the mother's side.
Arminius is owned by Herman Martin, Walter's brother, and once president of the SV. His dog, Visum, is in the pedigree, and was a welt sieger. Also, Quina Arminius, bred to welt sieger Eiko Kirschental, was full sister to Quando Arminius, who was two times welt sieger. Quina and Quando were out of Xaver Arminius bred Palme WildsteigerLand. Xaver was a very hard show dog who did well in schutzhund. Palme is considered to be one of the greatest brood bitches of all time, having produced two time welt sieger Quando when bred to Xaver, and producing two time welt sieger Uran WildsteigerLand when bred to Irk Arminius. Wildsteiger Land, Batu, Furstenburg, Bad Boll, are all west german show kennels.
one way to learn these things is to join the SV. it would be very helpful to understand german. they will send you their monthly magazine, and you can buy stud books with pictures and information on dogs. you can also send them the name and SZ number and for a fee they will send you a photocopy of that dogs pedigree. german pedigrees give much more information than AKC pedigrees. Working titles, conformation ratings, breed ratings, hip ratings, as well as brief descriptions of parents and grandparents. Color is given as well, and coat type. siblings and their titles are listed, as well as linebreeding if any.