Well, I was working on "down" with my manchester terrier who has the problem of not going all the way down (doesn't put her elbows down), when I decided to crack down on the elbow thing - I'm hoping to do competitive obedience with her.

At first I just led her into it more, because maybe I moved out of the "lead in" stage too fast. Well, she puts her elbows down when I lead her into it but doesn't stay down for more than a split second when I do that. So I put on a slip collar - not chain, the material kind, I forget what the material is called (up until this point I've only been doing motivational training, because it was accomplishing everything I needed to accomplish and aside from the elbow thing she's not sloppy in the least). I must be rusty in my timing or something, because after a few corrections, she was far worse than before and visibly nervous. She is not generally a soft dog, which made me feel even more clueless. I could tell she had no idea what I was trying to tell her, so I quit before doing too much damage.

Should I just go back to basics and start all over with the down? I feel like a bit of an idiot, I've never had a training session so counter productive. What do you guys do to get the elbows on the floor?


On another note - I was saying "down", giving her second to comply, and giving a downward correction when she didn't do it...was this the wrong thing to do? I was taught this as a kid, and it never failed me until today.

Maybe she needs an incentive to go down and stay down, or she doesn't really understand what you're asking. Here's what's worked for me: I was taught to teach the down by using a treat to guide the dog into a down, then putting the treat on the ground. Then you turn into a treat machine, putting treats (very small ones) on the ground, between their front paws in quick succession. If you give treats from the hand, they are more likely to pop up to grab the treat. You want them to figure out that the treats are come from the ground, and will appear there as long as their body stays down, so being down is a Good Thing. No corrections at this point. Make the dog figure it out - no down = no treats; down = treats. Then very gradually increase the length of time between treats. Eventually the treats disappear. Once they understand what's required, you can add distractions and corrections according to your dog's level of soft/hard, but remember to praise or go back to treats / toy / reward if your dog begins to think that Down is Not Good. My dog doesn't think of it as submission, he thinks of it as the quickest way to get his beloved ball, or a pat, or a good boy, or a break, or just a smile.

Thanks Anita, I like your method of having the treat on the ground much better than how I've been doing it.

Right after I posted this, though, I gave it another shot with a lead in, and she did it perfectly, though she got up quickly..so the second time, I praised her for the down but waited longer to give her treat and added an OK...the third time, she stayed down even after the treat, until I said the OK (I love terriers, they're so quick). After several minutes of this, I tried it without leading her into it, and she still did it perfectly, elbows down without hesitation. I should have been releasing her with okay to begin with, otherwise why would she know to stay down? My fault for skipping a step.

Part of the problem, though, as I just realized, is that I practice with her in the kitchen (cold, hard, tiles)...when she's on carpet or hardwood floors, she does it much better. Anyway, once we practiced on the other surfaces for a while, she was doing it on the tiles, too.

I think I was just in a bad mood and had bad timing with her, so she got confused and just didn't know what I was doing.

Anyway, that leaves me with only two problem areas before I head to an obedience fun match (heeling and allowing strangers to touch her) Yay!

Thanks.