Quote: connie sutherland

I hope we didn't get too wildly off-topic for the o.p.

I hope not, too. Actually, I think we've come up with an important consideration in the o.p.'s question: There is very strong evidence that kibble greatly increases the chances of bloat. What we don't know is whether it's the form (dried) or composition (includes grains) that keeps kibble in the stomach for so long. That argues for even grain-free, "raw" kibble being a backup, not a mainstay, of your dog's diet. At least until the slowing mechanism is known.

I want to research the pathogen issue more. You said some pathogens colonize within a few hours of entering the intestine. But... kibble takes much longer to enter the intestine. Once there, does it go through faster than raw food? Possibly, since the grains would give it more roughage that might speed its progress. Us raw feeders are used to narrower, drier, harder-to-extrude poops. And as I said, it often seems to take a good 24 hours anyway for pure raw food to come out the other end. So raw food could spend just as long, or longer, in the intestine, giving pathogens MORE opportunity to colonize. My gut (pun intended) feeling is that it's not the length of time in the intestine, it's the type of pathogens found in raw vs kibble, especially kibble that includes grains. Back to the books....

I don't know if I stated this in the beginning but we lost our 6 yr old GSD to bloat/twisted stomach. This is what got me looking into the whole raw diet. It broke our hearts to lose him like that and having to tell my kids that their best friend was gone was the worst thing I have ever had to do. I had never heard of that condition before and am determined to do everything I can to keep this dog safer. Connie,Anita,Mike and everyone else who posted information, thank you. I have been taking notes! Between Ed's DVDs and this board I feel like I am armed with terrific resources as we get closer (only two weeks away) to picking up our pup. Thanks again for all the help and please keep adding if you have more information. You guys are great!

Connie, just wanted to let you know I read the entire article on bloat from Tufts, and as a result am going to switch my dog back to eating 2 roughly equal meals a day, rather than one big one in the evening.

Thank you!

 Quote: KatherineDurst

I don't know if I stated this in the beginning but we lost our 6 yr old GSD to bloat/twisted stomach. This is what got me looking into the whole raw diet. It broke our hearts to lose him like that and having to tell my kids that their best friend was gone was the worst thing I have ever had to do. I had never heard of that condition before and am determined to do everything I can to keep this dog safer.

katherine, unfortunately, feeding raw is no guarantee the dog won't bloat either. i know of several cases of raw fed dogs who have never been fed anything but raw diet bloating. the cause of bloat isn't known. there are correlations known: body type, bloat in a first degree relative, raised bowl feeding, gorging on food, etc., etc. but why these things are correlated isn't known.

we had a long discussion about this when i posted here asking about prophylactic gastropexy, and someone came up with an exceedingly interesting article that suggested the explanation for the dramatic rise in bloat cases is actually the advent of using live virus for distemper vaccinations. there is a correlation of when killed virus became unavailable on the market, and the increase in bloat cases: the late 1960s. that would also explain why the littermates of a dog who bloated are also at high risk.

if you have a high risk dog, get a referral from your vet to discuss this issue with an experienced veterinary surgeon. they can help you assess if it makes sense for you to get your dog's stomach tacked.

Yes, I understand that feeding raw won't guarantee anything but at least I feel like it will give the pup an overall better start. We didn't vaccinate Scout exceopt for rabies so I know that wasn't part of the problem. He was anxious at times and from what I've read, that contributes to the bloat. The vet said we didn't do anything wrong but as I said I want to do better by this dog. Life doesn't come with guarantees and we learn from each life experience....I just keep trying to get better and do better.

 Quote: AnitaGard

... I read the entire article on bloat from Tufts, and as a result am going to switch my dog back to eating 2 roughly equal meals a day, rather than one big one in the evening.

Thank you!

This is one of the few things I feel pretty sure about (for my own dogs, anyway): two meals a day, not one.

As Alice says, the precise causes of bloat aren't yet known, but we do know the common threads, and we can at least avoid those conditions where possible.

As for the pathogens/bacteria/antibiotics, etc. It's in dog food too.

Right before the holidays I stopped in my vet's office for Heartgard. Dr. Bob was so excited to show me a recent study that involved two large greyhound kennels. One that fed raw and one that fed kibble. The same bacterias were found in both kennels, in the food and feces. Yet there were only a few instances of salmonella with the majority from the kibble fed dogs.

He gave me a copy of the report....don't know what I did with it but, it's around here somewhere in all the Christmas mess. Will fax it to you Connie when I find it!!!

It also gave the differences to expect in the blood panels of the raw fed and kibble fed dogs. Unfortunately, my memory ain't what it used to be.

As raw feeding is becoming more popular there are more studies being done....we just have to hang in here and wait it out....all I know is that my dogs are the healthest they have ever been, they look and smell wonderful!!!! The only time I ever have a problem is with my smarta$$ schipperke. He ate dead, rotten skunk recently and was the sickest of sick.....one of the drawbacks of living on a farm. He's very sneaky with it and is an absolute scavenger! He isn't even allowed to think about licking me!!!

what is Tufts? I would like to read this article as I feed my dogs only once a day...more info please!

Robbin, Tufts is the Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. Connie had given this link in a previous post, but I can understand how you missed it with all the other posts and holiday and puppy excitement http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=TUFTSBG2003&PID=5091&O=Generic

I'm still a bit confused on the discussion in the article about dried food (if it has citrus and fat it's bad, but if it has rendered meat and bone it's not - how exactly do they define "rendered meat and bone?), but most of the other guidelines are pretty clear.