Thanks and I agree. A lesson learned, that's for sure. The reason I was holding Gabbi's collar, she is one of those barkers and runs away. She won't quit barking for a good 3-5 min and from a distance. I think she is unstable and Biz is totally insecure and wary.
He couldn't see my friend in the same way, sunglasses and a beenie! There's no way he could have read him.

Regarding the full frontal.. He had to go around Gabbs & I. We were right in front of my friend. He didn't sneak up behind him, he went around us to my friends side, and silly me, thought he was going to sniff him as before. Does that matter, the not sneaking up behind my friend? I agree he was doing what he thought he should do.

I hope Im not beating a dead horse here, I'm just trying to be a better dog owner.

Consuelo, I have an intact 22 month old male who is soft. The 2 times I corrected him harshly (for snarling) were the two biggest, biggest, biggest mistakes I made with him.

When he does need correction, I now correct him with stern, verbal "NO", "NO" and he responds instantly. If it's something more needed, he'll get a pop of the leash but it is always a mild pop. Since changing from harsh to mild, I've never had an incident again with him.

I am not a trainer either, it's just what worked with my soft male.

 Quote: Judy Troiano

Consuelo, I have an intact 22 month old male who is soft. The 2 times I corrected him harshly (for snarling) were the two biggest, biggest, biggest mistakes I made with him.

Do you mind sharing why it was the biggest mistake? What happened and how he reacted.
(ha! I did the quote thing right finally)

Regardless of whether a dog is soft or hard, insecurity issues stem from inadequate leadership. The only difference in my humble view is the strength of corrections--a soft dog is more sensitive, perhaps not pain resistant, and would suffer from a hard correction, vs. a harder dog who might need a bit more 'help' to 'notice' a correction. Example being, a soft dog would respond well to a buckle collar, while to a hard dog a jerk on the buckle collar would be nothing more than a poke. It is no excuse to baby them or to think they need things easier. What these dogs need--like all dogs I suppose--is structure, firmness, fairness, and the knowledge that if they step out of bounds, the wrath of God is upon them.

I have a soft dog who is very manipulative and opportunistic. In the wrong hands I can easily see her turning into a fear biter. When she was a puppy she had food issues. I made no excuses for her, corrected her as I would have corrected any of my dogs, and then I showed her how extremely fair I am if she listened to me. She listens quite well and the security of my leadership helps her cope with her problems. She's always willing to please (even if it is just to meet her own needs), and looks really pretty out on the field doing obedience.

Inside he has a snap hemp collar and on the walk a fur saver. I don't want him backing out of his snap collar if he spooks. My trainer calls the fur saver a flat collar.
The other dog has a small leather collar, the round rolled one around the house and a prong on the walk.

I have never had to jerk or pop Biz in the house. On the walk he sometimes tries to forge ahead, and I turn and pop and walk the other way. That is the severity of his corrections, thus far.

 Quote: consuelocoyle

 Quote: judy troiano

Consuelo, I have an intact 22 month old male who is soft. The 2 times I corrected him harshly (for snarling) were the two biggest, biggest, biggest mistakes I made with him.

Do you mind sharing why it was the biggest mistake? What happened and how he reacted.
(ha! I did the quote thing right finally)

It was the biggest mistake because it was the only time that I knew my relationship with him had suffered as a result of my correcting him too harshly. At no other time did I feel corrections adversely affected him except these 2.

They occured several months apart - I didn't learn the first time because I didn't know what it all meant.

First incidence - would not come to me and it turned into a fiasco where I lost my patience and when I finally got him I snapped his collar with approximately a level 7 correction. He snarled at me. He must have been about 9 months old at the time. Now my level 7 is going to be way different than Ed Frawley's level 7. I think anyway. I've been accused of being "tiny" . I argue back that I'm 5'4" but no one wants to listen .

The second time was during a group training session. By now I had a prong collar on him and was going to these group classes but Gunnar was having a difficult time with the other dogs. He LOVES other dogs and didn't have the maturity level at this point to ignore them and follow my commands so he kept getting a level 2 type pop throughout the class this one particular day. I guess he had had enough and snarled at me.

I know now from living with him and really getting to know him and training him (without other dogs) every single day that he responds very well with verbal and only once in a great while will he need a pop and if he gets one it's never more than a level 1.

Now I wouldn't compare his obedience to Schutzhund trained dogs but he is by far the best behaved dog in any scenario I take him to (walks in neighborhood, parks off leash, guests visiting house, etc., etc.). I am always getting compliments on what a smart, well behaved dog he is. I would never have gotten this out of him if I showed him "the wrath of God" or any other harsh treatment. It just would not work with him.

The "wrath of God" does not equate to harsh treatment. It simply means he is not getting away with his behaviour--at all. I'm pretty weak and female too, and I have an extremely strong, civil dog whom you cannot choke off a sleeve if you tried. He has never, ever, ever snarled at me--and I don't make it a point to beat him on a daily basis. Whenever I find it necessary to give him a hard correction being simply that he's a hard and pain resistant dog, he has never protested. The fact is simply dogs need leadership, and if they see you as fair and dependable--corrections when they know they've done something wrong, protection from situations that would hurt them, always asking them to do something that they understand and can in fact do--then you'll get a dog who trusts you and holds nothing against you.

I suppose a more simpler way of putting all of what I'm trying to say is that corrections and whether your dog is soft or hard only forms a small part of the whole equation. What's important is that the dog understands what you want and knows for a fact that you are its leader--not just some caretaker or a gumball machine.

 Quote: kristine velasco

The "wrath of God" does not equate to harsh treatment.

I understand your point. My dog is special . To Gunnar, anything more stern than, "No poopsy woopsy. Please don't do that snookums" will cause him to stroke out !

 Quote: judy troiano

I understand your point. My dog is special . To Gunnar, anything more stern than, "No poopsy woopsy. Please don't do that snookums" will cause him to stroke out !

Omg Judy!! http://www.gentlesoulsshepherds.com/rotf.gif http://www.gentlesoulsshepherds.com/rotf.gif

Ha! Yuko, where'd you get those great smiley faces?? I want them!!

Is that your horse? God, I'm so jealous of all you people with multiple dogs and now horses. (This is an excellent spot for a smiley face that's stomping her feet and having a nasty temper tantrum).

You're both gorgeous by the way .