Quote: Sandra Vernlund

I see many red flags also. FEMA does not even start the certification process for disaster dogs until they are at least three years old.

This is incorrect. A FEMA dog can be certified at the age of 18 months. Please refer to our unofficial FEMA canine website http://www.disasterdog.org for more information.

 Quote:

Most SAR organizations will not allow SAR dogs to be cross-trained in Schutzhund and protection work. IMO I would do some investigating on this one.

However, some do, so its not completely out of the question. Specifically, FEMA has no regulations restricting bite-trained dogs in their canine program. I know of a few SchH titled dogs who are also FEMA certified.

I think we all agree that this (at worst) sounds like a scam. Or, at the very least, incorrect information was given by the seller of this dog.


Edited by Konnie Hein (03/10/2008 04:52 PM)
Edit reason: add more info

Great link Konnie, thank you for posting that.

And yes, this whole situation sounds like a scam and if you do not know what you are doing, or do not have the correct information you will end up with a dog that is crap but can be made to look like it is working.

Konnie, I am confused now. Do they have to be at least 18 monthes before they start the 18 month training course or are they certifying at 18 monthes? Is this the pre-certification test? If they are certifying at 18 monthes, then you don't necessarily have to take the full 18 monthes to train? I have the CSS manual but maybe I have an old version.

Please PM me. Thanks.

Sandy

Sandy:
I sent you a PM outlining the age requirement. Let me know if you don't get it - I had trouble getting your name in the Recipients field of the message.

Konnie could you clarify dual (live and cadaver) trained FEMA dogs?

I have always qualfied any comments I made about disaster dogs with "I have zero experience here" and I had heard most don't dual train, but I know some are.

FEMA does not require and has no certification standards for HRD dogs. However, they do not prohibit dogs being trained for both. SUSAR (the state USAR teams) has a certification standard for HRD dogs.

You are correct. Most of us do not train our dogs for both. Some do. There has been no definitive evidence compiled (whether it be past deployment experience or specific studies) supporting or disputing the value/abilities of a dog trained for both in an urban disaster setting. My dog is only trained and FEMA certified for live find. I decided not to train him for HRD also - it was a personal preference. If FEMA develops standards for HRD dogs, I will likely train a second dog for this work.

Although my post prompted some very intriguing, informative and lively discussion I must clarify my post. The dog was not a Homeland Security dog (my bad) Cam is a trained cadaver dog and is nationally certified. To our understanding this is a lifetime certification. In TN bite work does not invalidate this certification. The FEMA dog trainer that we purchased this dog from had originally intended for her son to train him in schuntzund but as teenagers go he was more interested in girls. lol! At the time she was in need of a cadaver dog for her wilderness team so that's how he became a cadaver dog but this is not the type of work she wanted for this dog. Over the 3 months we discussed the purchase of this dog from her and visited her kennel we also observed her training sessions. We have since purchased the dog. He has been a great addition to our family. His on and off leash obedience is excellent. We have found not one bad thing to say about this dog. On a side note while we were watching the training sessions my husband noticed that when the german shepherds were sent in to the rubble pile they would stand back and take a moment or two as if they were contemplating the easiest or best way to enter the pile. The Labs however, would dart straight off in to the pile without a second thought, find the target and dart back out. Do you think this shows the german shepherds are more intelligent or the labs are more eager? Just an observation, maybe someone has some thoughts on this matter. None the less, we are glad to have Cam and look forward to our schuntzund training with him. Thank you in advance for all your comments. I am sorry about the mistakes in my initial post.

A certification meant the dog and handler passed a one-time test.

The dog is probably NASAR certified since they have not got around to putting timelines on their tests as do all the police certifying agencies. Most organizations require annual certifications and maintenance of training logs with specific requirements in between. The certification is not good for "the dog" but for the "dog and handler" as a team.

But at least it shows he has some level of training in the discipline.

If you want to use him as a cadaver dog there then you would need to certify him (and you) and a lot is inovlved there. The basic scentwork is very straightforward but there is a lot in the details of HOW to work a site for human remains.

In general you observation about labs vs GSDs seems to be what I have seen but I have seen a lot of overlap - GSDs who are helter skelter and labs who are very controlled so I don't know. I would not want to generalize, but someone with a lot of experience with both breeds may be able to shed some light.