Hi everyone! This is my first post here on the forums, please direct me to the correct place to post if this is in the wrong spot, but there are so many topics in my post that I wasn't sure where to stick it, and I didn't want to create a ton of posts! If that was wrong, please let me know

I have an adult Border Collie that was a rescue about 4 and a half years ago. She is extremely "soft" and responds to simple voice correction for all training. Or, she /did/.

We recently got a new Border Collie puppy (at the major behest of my husband and children) and boy has my house changed!

Let me try and do a rundown of what I'm doing at present.

The Puppy is 4 months old. She is crate trained (we've had her three weeks and she's already trained with the word "Crate" to go run to her crate and get inside to wait for me.) she is nearly housetrained, at least, I believe she is. She's not messed in a week or so and she holds it, it seems like, to go outside. I let her out so often (every 2-3 hours during the day and 4-5 at night) that she doesn't really get the chance to wet inside. The only time she's wet is upon meeting a brand new person with excitement (or submissive peeing, but she only does it the first time she meets someone, never again, so I'm not sure? and only when her bladder is full... if she's recently gone, she won't wet.)

Anyway, she's quite good and even is trained to potty on "Go Potty" outside (she drops and pees, quite cute) but the issues have arisen with my older dog.

Oh yeah, and the puppy (Keiko is her name) is tethered to me at all times in the house. She does not have full run. Much more sanity that way I've noticed. My in-laws think I'm HORRIBLY cruel for keeping her on a leash in the house, but they don't have to follow her chew-on-anything butt around the house, do they?

Anyway, my older dog and her rough play. I totally have read about Leerburg's rules regarding this but there is nothing I can do about it, I cannot keep them seperate, as my older dog isn't crate trained at all and I can't keep her away from me. My older BC is at my side 24/7, she follows me /everywhere/.

Anyway during rough play, which I always watch, sometimes it escalates where I don't catch it right away and Maisy has corrected Keiko. This doesn't seem to bother Keiko much, but I worry -- am I messing anything up by letting them play? They both instigate the play at different times, and if I see that one really doesn't want to play, I stop it. and thank god they listen to me, right away. I say "Take a Break" and they stop and look expectantly at me and sit down. They are such good girls.

But older dog though, has suddenly become a teeny bit toy aggressive against Keiko and I correct her everytime she does it, and it's lessened -- will this get better the more I correct? I try to buy two of all the fun toys (treat toys) and do them at the same time so they are occupied similarly, is this ok?

a couple plain-out questions:

How long can a puppy take a walk for? She has some deformities (two shortened toes and her whole torso feels "off" her left side bones are way way thicker. The vet said nothing about them but she runs kinda wonky and sideways, but she can run!) and I was wondering how long I can walk with her for.

She isn't in the crate for more than a couple hours during the day each time and at night up to 5 hours, is this too long? How long is too long? Like total hours in the day. She LOVES it in there, and doesn't mind it at all. She has enough room to stand, turn-around, but when she lays down she can't FULLY stretch out like she can on the hardwood floors. Is this space too small? It's a 36" crate with a divider (I count down to 11 bars to slot the divider on) Would seeing pics help? I can take one of her in it. I wanted it to be small enough so she wouldn't wet in it, but she never has. (I got that rubber mat for the bottom of it).

When can I start obediance training past sit? She knows that already like easypeasy. Can I begin working on Down, Stay and Come? She sort of always comes when I call her anyway, but not through distraction... I trained my Maisy to be so reliable that she's off leash in my backyard, though there is no fence. I haven't even done reinforcement training in years and she still has recall and minds every command.

Anyway I just kind of wanted to see if I could get some answers to my specific questions! Sorry if they are posted in the wrong spot. Thanks so much!!

Why not crate train the adult dog?

 Quote: Lizzie Bailey

She isn't in the crate for more than a couple hours during the day each time and at night up to 5 hours, is this too long?

She'll let you know how long is too long.
Each dog is different.

And on the ob training, are you using marker training?

http://leerburg.com/302.htm

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

what's marker training? So I guess not I don't use treats, as I find that if food is the object, and if you don't have any, I dunno, it's a crutch. I always just use correction and praise. no clickers, nothing like that. I'm a stay at home mom, so I'm home all the time so they are with me ALL the time, it works out.

As far as crate training the adult? I dunno, I would find severe opposition from my husband, as it stands, I had to explain to him (and his parents, who were obnoxious) about the crate and why there had to be so little room for Keiko.

So the rough play is just awful then??


OH! I couldn't train Maisy with the clicker because it scared her to death, in fact, if she hears it, she is terrified -- so I can't use it around Keiko

I got her when she was 1 and a half and she just came to me that way! (she is terrified of thunderstorms, too)


EDIT: oops, reading the links...

Lizzie,

You may be able to gleen a bit of info here puppy won't let older dog play link

Might not be exactly your issue, but it talks about how to work with dogs separately.

Also, food is not a crutch if used correctly. The Marker training article here is wonderful. You can use with a word and food, does not have to be a clicker.

Thanks Carol for the link

I still was wondering how long I can take my puppy for a walk? She's got some issues (two toes that are shorter than the others, including a weight bearing toe in the back right leg) and her shoulders and torso seem to be twisted a bit (she walks diagonally kinda) she seems to get tired easily on a walk for a puppy... the vet said nothing about any of this.

She barks pretty annoyingly in her crate, thing is, she whines a certain way when she has to potty -- and barks LOUDly, (so loud in fact, my eardrums HURT) when she is bored? I guess? I mean, she is leashed at all times in the house, but when I have to do laundry I can't bring her in there with me (it's the cats area, and we've already removed the cat's food and moved stuff around so Keiko can't get to it...

How long do they chew on anything and everything?


How will I ever be able to tell if she's housetrained? She's on the leash and with me 24/7 and I take her out all the time... I'd love to give her more freedom, she's so good, but I have no idea if she is /really/ housetrained or if she hasn't messed inside because I take her out a lot.

 Quote: Lizzie Bailey

Thanks Carol for the link

I still was wondering how long I can take my puppy for a walk?

If your dog sleeps like the living dead four hours after you come back from the walk, then it was probably a tad too long. If she takes a quick snooze and is back to her energetic little self, then it was probably just right.

 Quote: Lizzie Bailey

She barks pretty annoyingly in her crate, thing is, she whines a certain way when she has to potty -- and barks LOUDly, (so loud in fact, my eardrums HURT) when she is bored? I guess?

The more she barks and complains, the more time she spends in there. Don't let her out when she complains.
If she barks for five minutes, add another 15 minutes to her crate time. She'll eventually learn that crate time = quiet time.

If she is really obnoxious about it, move the crate to another area of the house, where the barking isn't so unbearable.

 Quote: Lizzie Bailey

How long do they chew on anything and everything?

Every dog is different. The important thing is to teach her what is appropriate to chew on. At her age, she is teething, and her chewing is basically a neccesity of life. It's how she relieves the discomfort and helps wiggle the teeth out.
Make sure you have a variety of puppy-appropriate chew toys. When you notice her mouth starting to wander it's way onto the leg of your coffee table, relocate her and give her a new chew toy.

Eventually, dogs learn what they can and can't chew on (for the most part. They all have their moments. )

 Quote: Lizzie Bailey

How will I ever be able to tell if she's housetrained? She's on the leash and with me 24/7 and I take her out all the time... I'd love to give her more freedom, she's so good, but I have no idea if she is /really/ housetrained or if she hasn't messed inside because I take her out a lot.

If you work out the perfect formula, make sure you post it for the rest of us.
The way I've done it, is to give the dog little freedoms, and see how it goes.
In the evening, after you've taken the dog out for the post-dinner potty, and when you've got a solid block of time to devote to supervising, let the dog off the tether and see what she does.

It's a trial and error process. If she hasn't had accidents in the house, it will go a bit faster because she's never developed the association.

A good rule of thumb is whether or not you are able to gauge when your dog needs to go out.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

If your dog sleeps like the living dead four hours after you come back from the walk, then it was probably a tad too long. If she takes a quick snooze and is back to her energetic little self, then it was probably just right.

ahh okay so I'll try different lengths of time and see how it goes - I've been really hesitant for a walk down my whole block, as its long and just to the corner and back has her dragging her head on the way back -- but she doesn't collapse and sleep a ton...

 Quote:

The more she barks and complains, the more time she spends in there. Don't let her out when she complains.
If she barks for five minutes, add another 15 minutes to her crate time. She'll eventually learn that crate time = quiet time.

Okay good, I have been 100% ignoring her when she's been barking, and she tends to quiet down after about 15 minutes (but oh god, what a 15 minutes) -- if I get up and leave, she quiets down even faster. Her crate is in my studio (where I work, so I am in there a LOT) and I never thought about moving it if she's obnoxious -- but I think just ignoring her is working. There is a definite difference when she's gotta go (like after a trip out to dinner for the family and she's been in there 2-3 hours or her overnight 5 hour stuff) and when she's just mad I put her in there (is she? i dunno, I have to put her in there so I can make dinner, etc... I worry if I tether her to say the coffee table, where I can't see her every second, she'll get into something I don't want her to or pee or something.

Also, I don't know what to do about the Rough Play, they do it ALL THE TIME... both will instigate at one point or another, and I happened to catch them today at it, with the puppy starting it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJYLvOXo8N0

I just got my video camera so hopefully more dog action soon.

When the rough play ensues, I try and correct if one seems particular put upon.

 Quote:

Every dog is different. The important thing is to teach her what is appropriate to chew on. At her age, she is teething, and her chewing is basically a neccesity of life. It's how she relieves the discomfort and helps wiggle the teeth out.
Make sure you have a variety of puppy-appropriate chew toys. When you notice her mouth starting to wander it's way onto the leg of your coffee table, relocate her and give her a new chew toy.

Eventually, dogs learn what they can and can't chew on (for the most part. They all have their moments. )

So far the Everlasting Treat Balls have been a godsend, and then I also have the ace in the hole: peanut butter in a toy w/a bunch of holes. I also feed her through the Tug-A-Jug in her crate, and you should see her FLY to the crate when I get it down off the top of the fridge (before I even fill it) it's so cute

 Quote:

If you work out the perfect formula, make sure you post it for the rest of us.
The way I've done it, is to give the dog little freedoms, and see how it goes.
In the evening, after you've taken the dog out for the post-dinner potty, and when you've got a solid block of time to devote to supervising, let the dog off the tether and see what she does.

It's a trial and error process. If she hasn't had accidents in the house, it will go a bit faster because she's never developed the association.

A good rule of thumb is whether or not you are able to gauge when your dog needs to go out.

Okay, I will try that. She's zonked out right now after our afternoon walk, i went a tad longer today so we'll see how that goes.

We've had her for 4 weeks, and she's 98% reliable in the crate for no messes (she's piddled once or twice, upon seeing someone new and in her excitement, pees) so I was wondering if I could give her a little more room? As it stands now, she can lay down and stand up and turn around (they like all suggest) but she can't /stretch/ out-lay-down... should I move the divider back some and allow a little more freedom there? Is that a good litmus test that she is a little more housetrained with some more room to possibly scoot-and-piddle in?

If she goes 5 hours at night without piddling, then I'd say, try giving her more space during the day, put keep it smaller at night.