Hello all,

I have a wonderful 5 month old GSD from german/working lines who is teaching ME a lot! Although I've had dogs my entire life, I've never raised them the way they SHOULD be raised, and I am committed to "thinking like a dog" instead of treating him like a human. We purchased Falcon when he was 4 months old from the breeder. Falcon's first owner had to return him when their marriage suddenly fell apart (not a pretty story) and the breeder took him back. I fortunately found Leerburg.com and have taken advantage of their DVD's - "Your Puppy from 8 weeks to 8 Months", "Raising a Working Puppy", "Basic Obedience" and the one on Establishing Pack Structure. Training with Markers in on the way!! With all these resources, you would think I couldn't possibly have a question; however...

A flat collar on Falcon means NOTHING to him. If it weren't for a prong collar I could not take him on a walk. He has a high food drive and responds/learns very well with treat rewards and I'm keeping our training sessions short and sweet and keeping it all "up" and positive.

Where I need clarification is with the Learn, Correct, Distract theory covered in Basic Obedience - only correcting when you are 150% sure he understands the command - which I "get" completely. However, I'm now confused - in reading some of the posts on the forums I see many folks do not recommend a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy. When is it "appropriate" to correct a 5 month old and how - once you KNOW he understands what you said. I'm not talking about jerking him senseless; I'm talking about getting the "ouch" response discussed in the Basic Obedience DVD.

Many thanks - the information on this site is amazing!

Barbara

Can you explain the walk problems? Is it just pull-pull-pull or is it lunging at other dogs, or what?

Also, what is the correction situation you are mainly concerned with? What is the obedience problem that needs the "ouch response" correction?

Barabra,
You'll probably get a lot of different reasons people don't use pinch collars on very young dogs.
So I only speak for myself on this.
When I have a 20 week old dog I'm still doing just fun stuff, be it walking around exploring, or running around chasing each other. Rolling a ball for him or just letting him sniff around under my supervision. Whatever the time we get to spend together also gives me a chance to start working and shaping for the future, because really for the 'moment' I am the center of the universe. During that time I'm able to shape a down to die for, a sit to admire, and a recall that doesn't mean anything bad to the dog. And all at the same time having fun and a good bonding experience with the dog.
I know it's a short list and I could go on with how far it can go, but you get the idea.

If nothing else, hopefully there's lots of time left for negative enforcement if it's needed.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Connie,

Your simple questions made me pause and think this through (thank you for that...)and what I came to realize is the area where I feel the need to "correct" Falcon is primarily when we are interacting with our other dog, Sadie. Although we only allow limited, supervised play time together, I made the huge mistake (so obvious now) when first bringing Falcon home, of allowing Sadie to run ahead of us when out on walks. (We live in the boonies and Sadie has free run when outside with me, however Falcon is always on a lead - from 6' up to a 100' when playing ball, etc...)In my stupid ignorance I first thought this would help build drive in Falcon, but quickly realized I was setting Sadie up as pack leader and I was coming in a distant third. I no longer walk the two dogs together but used the prong collar to get Falcon back to not pulling me like a sack of potatoes. With this said, when I take Falcon into town to expose him to different sights/sounds (which he LOVES) he does do the tug, tug, tug thing if not on the prong collar.

The second area is when we do allow Sadie and Falcon play time together. We use the "lets play" command and the "no play" command. Most of the time Falcon will stop at "No play", however, when he wouldn't stop, we would "correct" him with a pop on the prong collar.

While talking about this last night with my husband and thinking through your questions, it struck me like a ton of bricks - WHY wasn't I simply using the positive treat/reward system for "no play" instead of having gone to the prong collar? I don't have an answer to that, but I am going to make that change; Falcon really responds to food rewards when doing other training.

This morning I did things differently. No prong collar on our walk. Falcon did just fine, which he normally does now on walks if Sadie isn't out. I also didn't allow any play time with Sadie this morning, I didn't even allow them in the house together. When I do allow them play time this afternoon, I am going to introduce the treat reward system for getting the "no play" response.

Thank you for causing me to think this through, and of course if you have input after reading this, I'm all ears.

Randy,

Both your and Connie's response to my question caused me to really, really think about my work / play with Falcon. I think I was rushing things, pushing too hard, worrying that I had to teach everything NOW, instead of slowing down and enjoying the process more. I also know that I am probably overly concerned with how much time Falcon spends in a kennel/crate that I am stressing both of us out in my attempts to keep him entertained, playing, learning, etc... Last night my husband suggested I simply stop feeling guilty, keep up with the three long walks and play times here and there throughout the day, but also give Falcon more time by himself. In trying to keep him "out of the crate" as much as possible, I'm getting stressed over not being able to devote a few hours a day uninterrupted in my home office. The old Catholic guilt genes are still alive and well.

I honestly want to do what is right for Falcon and to raise a happy, contented, well mannered dog. I sincerely appreciate your input, and am going to start enjoying this time instead of feeling "driven" to succeed. Many thanks...

Barbara

As a side note, you may find your training goes much easier if you do not allow your puppy to play with other dogs.

I am learning this is true... Yesterday when I didn't allow Falcon time with our other dog, the day was certainly less stressful. There wasn't the need for the monitoring/correcting/etc... I do love the energy expended when they play together, however!! LOL! Thanks for the input.