I started marker training today with my submissive GSd recsue, Shelby. We've had two sessions today. All she wants to do is sit in front of me and look at my face, with her ears back and that fearful "oh, I sure hope I'm doing this right" look in her eyes. She is not happy and feels pressured. I believe she is connecting this with obedience. I am VERY "up", excited and encouraging. When I back away and call her (her name only or I just make silly noises) to me she drops her head, tucks her tail, comes over and sits in front of me again. If I simply back away she will lie down and drop her head. I know you can't see what I am doing, but I am doing everything I can to make this a party and it simply isn't working. I have also tried being more subdued, thinking maybe my excitement is too much for her and she's worse. The second session was worse than the first. I went back and watched the DVD again and I can't see where I am going wrong. I have evaluated my timing, length of session, the food, etc. She didn't eat for 36 hours and I am giving her cooked, warm steak and organic buffalo dogs. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks in advance! I am trying not to be discouraged....Charlene

Hi Charlene,

I'm not a training expert by any means, but have you only tried using markers during a "session" of sorts? As in, you're clearly preparing the dog, through voice and physical cues, for a sit down lesson where all the pressure is directed at her? She sounds like she just doesn't handle that kind of confrontation well, so even if you're going about the marker training correctly, she still shuts down at the mere idea that you might expect something out of her, and that consequently she might not get it right.

Will she come to you if you randomly call her within the house? Will she look at you if you say her name while she's normally sitting next to you (or a similar situation). I guess I'm wondering if you could use things you already do with her, that you've maybe taken for granted as things she "knows", to reinforce the idea that she'll get rewarded for doing things you ask. If she starts getting treats when she's not expecting it (albeit after 'does a little something' maybe she'll think twice about being so timid or skeptical about your intentions... just a thought. I don't have any experience with fearful or shy dogs like this.

~Natalya

If you are just beginning and "charging the mark" then she may just not know what you want, especially if she has had formal obedience training.

try sitting on the floor, or on the couch with a more casual demeanor. I'd just have a handful of treats and sit on the couch, and say YES, treat. Repeat, repeat...... With dogs like this sometimes avoiding direct eye contact helps too. Use your peripheral vision but don't look directly in her eyes and see how that goes.

I believe you're behaving like a direct line thinker, just relax and remember that there are no time tables or rules about how to do this. You want your dog to become really happy to hear her mark, that's the only goal you have for now and you may have to play around with some different ideas for her.

 Quote: charlene babyak

... She didn't eat for 36 hours and I am giving her cooked, warm steak and organic buffalo dogs. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks in advance! I am trying not to be discouraged....Charlene

Is "yes" the marker?

"Yes" and give reward. "Yes" and give reward.

Remember on the other thread -- nothing for now but loading the marker.

"Backing away, calling her, evaluating timing" .... all you want to do for now is give the marker and reward.

As Cindy said:
I believe you're behaving like a direct line thinker, just relax and remember that there are no time tables or rules about how to do this. You want your dog to become really happy to hear her mark, that's the only goal you have for now and you may have to play around with some different ideas for her.

No pressure, and no timetable.

Thanks for the advice. "Yes" is the marker. I am going to to try sitting down on the floor and avoid direct eye contact as that i believe will help. Also I'm going to avoid using the bait bag. Standing, eye contact and using the bait bag are all things she associates with obedinece training. What I meant by timing was the time between saying yes and giving her the treat. I am not using any commands. Thanks again SO much. Tomorrow is a new day!

Maybe if you don't think of it as a session or a training routine or anything at all but associating "yes" with "reward coming" ....

I see what you mean about standing, etc.

This might be (OK, is) a reflection on my laziness, but I remember sitting on the couch and saying "yes" and giving treats. Very upbeat, but no formal anything.

You just want her to love hearing that marker. That's all.

You can try a few different things as well.

You said you are backing away from the dog and calling to her. Having her approach you is a "more advanced" level that the dog is not ready for yet. Coming up to her superior might be hard work for her. Try and keep it neutral.

For example, you can put a small pile of food on your counter or coffee table where she can smell it. If she looks excited for the food and stares at where it is, say YES and flick one off for her to catch. This might work if it is looking at you that makes her intimidated, or taking food from your hand that makes her intimidated. try it 10 times and then see if it is going better.

If she seems to cringe when she hears the word YES - it is possible this dog has been yelled at in the past and/or is sensitive to voices. (which may be why your "praise party" is backfiring... ) If that is the case, try clicking your tongue, or a ball point pen (an actual clicker might startle her if she is noise sensitive). Make the sound and then immediately deliver the treat. After 10 times, evaluate if it is working better.

The first task I ask my dogs to do after I have charged the mark, is touch my hand with their nose. In your case, do not ask for eye contact or approaching you first thing. These are intimidating things for a nervous submissive dog.

Have fun!

P.S. connie - I always sit in a chair when I clicker train. I make the dog do the work! Is that bad?

Today was a better day and I just sat on the chair or the floor- she wasn't nearly as worried.

I think I was trying too hard and trying to incorporate everything I saw. When I watched that DVD and saw Cindy working with a puppy and she was backing up, calling him by name and keeping him "up" during the "charging the mark" process, so I was under the impression that it is prefferable to have the dog "up" rather than flat, therefore I was trying all sorts of antics to try to get her attitude up.

It's a lot easier just to sit there and do the exercise!

The strange thing (or maybe not so strange) is that her attitude in general is better- she's happier.

Last night I did some charging the mark training while sitting on the floor and afterwards Shelby showed some dominant behavior towards my husband- putting her paws on him and trying to stand on him when he was sitting on the floor & then she went in our bedroom and tried to hump the bed when my husband and I were both sitting there reading!?!? Do we need a doggie psychologist?

She's also showing more dominance toward the cats- putting her paw on them and whining at them. We have stopped the behavior,but not really reprimanded her for it- I'm so afraid of doing more damage to her. Thanks again and if you have any thoughts on the other behavior I'd love to hear it!

Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/24/2009 01:18 PM)
Edit reason: made paragraphs