Steve we have just got the sit and lay mastered and walking on a leash without pulling.They play fetch well and easily give up their toys dropping them in my hands, and we play hide and seek I try to mix my training up so its not all boring stuff maybe this is wrong. I've also got them to where when I say crate they will easily go in them. We go on walks in the woods and ofcourse I never take them together and always work with them individually
and only after they are tired will I let them be outside together with me and then I reinforce the stay and down with them both together. Maybe I'm wrong doing that at this stage of training but I want them to realize that we are a pack and I'm pack leader still when we are all together and they have to mind always.

Thanks Norman I'll try that to.Most of the problem is me I'm sure as I've never formally trained a dog in my life. We have horses so I'm used to having the horses lead on my right and dogs are led on the left UGH so its not natural leading position for me and I'm sure my awkwardness hinders progress to and another thing I found out is I have been having too much slack in the leash.

How have you been training heeling specifically Pat? Are you using food at all?

Yes Steve I do use treats and verbal markers like Ed uses in his video on Basic Dog Obedience.Angus is very food motivated.Ugo,he just snifts at them or he'll take maybe one then spit it out. I haven't tried human food with them though until today and Dennis' PB on a wooden spoon had Angus heeling in no time.When it came Ugo's turn to train he looked at it like "throw it already" he didn't even take time to smell the PB so I had to put some on my finger first and then get him to lick it off and reintroduce the spoon.He did lick it off the spoon though and he did heel being motivated by an empty spoon.Steve he just doesn't seem to be food motivated.Next time I'll try weinees and string cheese. If those don't work I don't know what to do and I even cut down on his feed last night to like Norman suggested.I can't even get a half decent watch out of Ugo not even with a toy he'll make eye contact but he won't hold it,his eyes stray from my face to the toy and if its treats I'm holding he gets this disgusted look on his face as if to say "Go back and get my toy" and shuts down.

Well, it sounds like maybe the food will be what to use with Angus and Ugo will be better with toys. With either one I like to use the anticipation of when they are going to get it. The intermitant rewarding is what keeps them focused along with how you deliver that reward. I play games with a mouth full of food moving around, backing up, and spitting treats. For the anticipation I want to build, I can freeze with him waiting for me to spit it. Andy is older and knows what I'm doing, he'll catch them no matter what position I'm in.

With my 6mos old shepherd I have to stop and let him actually see the treat. I have to lean over and drop it to him from my mouth. I move away from him and I mark every time he looks to my face. The result is the same, they both try to look at my face the whole time.

Most of the time I'm not looking for perfection, just drive. It's basically the same with toys. You're manipulating the position and attention of the dog with the toy and his anticipation of when and how he's going to get it. Take a look at some of the clips of Cindy with Rush and how she's holding his ball under her arm and search back on some Roni Hoff posts about playing with your dog. She gave me one of those light bulb moments about the dog learning the reward is playing with you not the toy itself.

And then you try everything and you'll learn what will motivate both of them.

Thanks Steve for all your help.I'll be sure and check out all of Roni Hoff's posts.I'm not going to give up on food treats with Ugo just yet though. Today I'm off so I'm going to take Angus and Ugo on seperate hikes and work on everything they already know and then just let them be dogs for awhile,then later this afternoon after they have rested work on getting that "watch" and try heeling again. I'll take treats with me,maybe Ugo will be different away from the house and his toy.