Here is an old and informative topic that may be helpful. While on the bb, go to Don Yarnall's website and read the article on Find and Bark. This should be especially helpful in defining drives and their purpose.

http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000001

Maggie that was an excellent link, thanks for the help. Cleared up some things, more inreguard to various definition then meaning or rythme. I should find a definition (from a Pro) that I and others understand and can work with, and stick to it. But understand that others may differ slightly. Results is what counts.

Mr. J. Lewis that would be great, I'll have to see how much we can raise to see if we can fly you down and meet your fee. In Maggie's post you were introduced as an excellent trainer by your peers.
Let me get back with you on that.

Thanks

Russle Wrote "Is making a dog nuts about a sleeve the only ACCEPTED way to train a dog to bite? Just curious. Thanks."

Don's reply

Bite work on the sleeve is just one of the ways to train bite work. As mentioned you can do full body and I'll add civil agitation (without a sleeve, within a protective area), the dog's concentration is on the mans actions not the sleeve. To me this along with the hidden sleeve and muzzle work is the true test as to if a dog will and wants to bite or fight a man.

I've seen some dogs that have no desire to bite a man they only want to bite the sleeve, or they have to be worked to get after a sleeve-less man.

Most of these are breds not usually trained for protection work like Labs, Pit bulls, AM bull dogs, Boxers and Mixes. Just my experince I'm sure there are exceptions and other breeds like poddles that are confused. Even weak nerve Mals/GSD sometime won't go after a man without the prey object. Its only a game to these dogs, when only the sleeve or tug is presented, or at this stage of training.

You release the sleeve and these dogs may not come back to defend or alert back on the man.

So yes there are other ways to training a dog to bite, but the sleeve work is one of the foundations of bite work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Prey drive is the only way to START training
protection work. If the dog is stuck in prey it might hinder his later training. Defense and fight drive need to take over once the dog has gained technique and confidence from prey work.
Its all about building confidence in the dog.

David wrote
Defense and fight drive need to take over once the dog has gained technique and confidence from prey work.

You mentioned that defense and fight drive needs to take over, during bite work. Of course the dog needs to be within a certain age range, but isn't these drives induced by the decoys action?

Rather then one day while training the dogs starts fighting the helper or new helper seriously, because of his confidence and technique. Some would but most would have to be provoked into this action. Right?

Wouldn't this helper old or new have to induce an element that would cause the dog to want to fight?

Generally this is how it works, Don.

You get the best possible dog, one that is well balanced in protection drives. Then you teach the dog technique, condition him physically, and build confidence in prey drive.

As the dog gets older, he is ready to take the learned technique and test his meddle against real opponents where his other protection drives and characteristics will have to carry him. . .or not.

How you manipulate the training and evoke the drives of the dog, depend on the dog and the goals.

There are other ways, especially with dogs that have vastly different working temperaments, but this way is the best and most humane.

Check the DVD list, those tapes Ed mentioned are on DVD already.

Don, you have to be from Texas right?