Forgive me, I have not read this whole thread, but what Stacie just described is NOT what I would consider a normal reaction to a prong collar if it is used appropriately. That description fits into OVERCORRECTING a dog. Some dogs are soft dogs, and require a light touch. A good trainer can get a feel for this.

THANK YOU DEANNA. (and yes, i did mean to shout)

Roy, if your training schutzhund or planning to, then Ask a schutzhund person, because I train NVBK and our Heel is what I call a realistic heel, our dogs can walk in heel all day long. However for a young dog, and one that seems to know he's a puppy, I would suggest on walks, rotate some. Do heel for about 10 steps, then stop, reward, and give him another command, I use OK. That tells my dog he can do as he feels, but I like to think I still maintain psych control over him, because he is only allowed to do what he wants on my approval. So he can be a dog and pull me all the while knowing that I can put him back into control (heel). then I let him walk as he feels a good ways, then I stop suddenly give the command reposition him (if you have to while he's learning) and immediatly start off walking in heel. In a 2block walk I'll heel him 3times for about 10 steps (in early stages) Now I walk my dog all the time in heel, because there is no stress or conflict about it, because he can still walk and pay attention to surroundings and all he has to do is walk beside me. In NVBK and most other sports your dog doesn't have to walk ballet style staring up your nostrals the entire time, that would be unrealistic to ask that dog to walk in heel for a very long period of time. As for the prong collar, I personally, and I'll say it again, I don't claim by any means that my prong method is the end all be all in prong collar introduction. Just what I prefer because it worked for me with excellence in the past. I don't just put it on and start correcting away. After letting him wear it for a few days, taking it on and off several times without using it, I then at first let the dog correct himself. if he pulls, or goes off in the wrong direction, the tension with the prongs will gradually tighten, and he will very quickly figure out that he is in control of the discomfort. He says, "Hey if I stop pulling it goes away, and if he turn and I turn it goes away". I feel like they eventually get use to the collar using this method, and then when they do or have gotten to where they pull harder on it then when the collar was first introduced, then it's time for the short yanks, based on your dogs level at the time of course. That is how I did mine, I'm sure they're are several ways, Ed has an article about this in his articles. Oh, I'v found this method leaves the dog with motivation instead of that scary look some dogs give when they do OB, that look like they just get killed at home, and that, I swear momma I won't act up in public anymore look, (ears slick back, dog licking lips alot, excessive blinking and that bunched up skin on the forehead look. You see dogs like this sometimes, yes, they follow commands VERY promply, but they look like they just heard the devil talk to them. I have seen dogs whom had a prong collar thrown on them and went right into corrections with yanks from the collar, and the dogs had that look. I'd suggest if ever you see your dog start to look like that, STOP!, and just play with him in prey drive, or praise big time, do what you have to do just relieve the stress. This is just M O and I have found this method to work for me.

Chris, Deanna & Stacie thank you so much for your input, i really appreciate it. I just recieved my prong collar, 6ft lead and the dvd on obedience. I am at the moment, going to start watching the dvd from Ed. I think i should watch this dvd in full and repeat watching it over & over before i do anyhting. And especially how to put the prong collar on correctly. Tomorrow hopefully i begin to walk Cyber on the collar and i will let you all know how i'm getting on. Fingers cross that this works. On April the 2nd in Dublin, GSA of Ireland Sieger show will be on. Hopefully the people at this will be helpful. I'm looking forward to watching the dogs work. Their website is here if anyone is interested GSA Ireland
I'll be talking my camera with me and will post photos for you guys on Cyber's site. Its under construction at the moment as i'm terribly busy but if you would like to look at Cyber click here Cyber
Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay guys this is my second day working with cyber with his new lead and prong collar, and all i can say is that im totally amazed. No more pulling, healing perfectly. I introduced him to some distractions, and he his constantly looking up at me and listening to every command i give. I can't say thanks enough to Mr Ed Frawley. He has been a god send. Thank you, Thank you!! The dvd on obedience is fantastic, i'll been watching it for my fouth time now. Just absoulety fantastic. Again to everyone for the invaluable input and comments i say thank you. I'll keep you updated on how things progress from here.

Deanna. This wasn't a result of over-correcting. I've seen 3 different males have the prong collar put on for the first time and they had this reaction immediately after the collar was placed on their necks. No correction had been applied at all. (Of course, they were probably self correcting by rolling around on the ground.) Now, all 3 of these males were rescues over 18 months that had never had formal training.

Roy. That's awesome! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Stacie; Now, all 3 of these males were rescues over 18 months that had never had formal training.
Well, that answers it because I was just thinking that she must have been in contact with dogs that had extremely bad nerves, and just bad genetics, or either the dogs had been abused previously with a prong collar. If a dog gives a reaction like that just from putting it on, that dog has some issues far greater than that prong collar!

Just thought id update how we are progressing so far. As i said no more pulling since using the prong collar, its been so good, now when i put on his leather collar he doesnt pull on that as well and does all commands given. No more running in and out of the back of the SUV. Sits and waits for me to say "ok" before he jumps in, and sits before i open the door and waits again for me to say "ok" to come out. Also before he is left out of his kennel/run he sits and waits for gate to be opened and for me again to say "ok". In saying that sometimes he does his ballerina dance when he sees me cuming up for him, but thats ok, he is just so excited to see me, but once he calms down which doesnt take too long he sits and waits. Before we cross any roads he sits most of the time before i even have to ask. Im using a bum bag with his food in it as treats. One thing i also learned which i never releaised before was setting markers, now they make a huge difference! Overall there has been vast imporvements in last couple of weeks, he is a very quick learner. He still tries to go over to other dogs, but once i keep our distance and with a proper level of correction he just stares, ears up but continues to walk, at times looking back, believe me this is a huge improvement than before. Its especially annoying here as there are many dogs that are left out by their owners to roam. Only two days ago did what look like a white boxer dog who had been chansing another dog come over to me, my wife who is expecting our first child which of course i was concerned. Cyber tried to stand up to him but i wouldnt have it, i just kepting moving with him but kept one eye on him, he eventually walked away. Hopefully this is a good experience for Cyber thats its best to keep his distance with other dogs. I think im going to up the distraction a bit now, by going to dog parks and see how we get on, i'm not expecting miracles but hopefully once he gets used to more dogs been on our walks he will evetually ignore them and enjoy his walk.
All i can say is that the prong collar has worked wonders. In fact both the dvd on obedience, the 6ft lead & prong collar have been fantastic, which made me to go and buy more products from Ed. Waiting on a trainer vest, martingale lead & an no bark collar. Cyber tends around 6-8pm to start barking, once i go out to him he stops but i continue to hear other dogs in the distance barking so i guess he is just having a chat, so i must now teach him when its ok and not ok to bark. Again many thanks to you all and especially to all the team at Leerburg, you dont know how fantastic it has been for me & cyber to be able to understand each other a whole lot better.