OK, you serious PPD folks, don't laugh me off the board here.

Service Dogs of America (UKC) has a Protection alert certification.

Wondering whether the training for the PA would conflict in any way (in effect on the dog) with training for any of the non-protection dog sports and competitions (OB, Agility, Rally, Flyball, even Therapy Dog).

Experiences? Opinions? Individual dog dependent?

Yeah, it's the "pre-phase" to their protection categories (is it "BH" in Schutzhund?).

There was a thread the other day about GSP's as therapy dogs, and the conversation meandered to the idea that bitework and "therapy dog" work don't meld very well, to the point that some evaluators won't approve a dog for "therapy dog" if they know he's done bitework. I'm still trying to understand where the line is drawn (or whether there is a line) in a dog's versatility once training crosses into bitework more frequently. I totally get that most of the "protection sports" basically involve an oversized tug on a sleeve. I'm guessing that it's the evaluators of the therapy dogs ?? or the institutions into which the therapy dogs go (e.g. schools) that have a problem with the bitework history, not the dogs.

I've read that well-bred, well trained dogs that have done Sch training are actually LESS likely to bite as opposed to MORE likely. Do you folks agree with this?

 Quote: aaron myracle

You find it in a lot of places. I've been told a bite-trained dog cannot do Search and Rescue, Therapy, herding, etc etc etc.

Its ignorance, fear and prejudice.

I absolutely agree that a well-trained Schutzhund dog is less likely to bite. If its succeeded in the sport, chances are it has a stable temperament and good obedience.

That confirms what I think as well, Aaron. I don't see how a dog could learn the control it takes to excell in Sch, yet fail to exhibit the same control under less stressful circumstances.

The problem is a matter of perceptions of the humans, then, not the ability of the dogs.

I suppose a contributing factor like anything else is the minority of poorly trained or poorly bred dogs that transgress in situations that better trained/bred dogs could easily handle.

It's not much different than the public perception of guns. There are thousands more deaths in this country every year from a variety of other causes, but once there is a fatal shooting, the outcry "ban the guns" begins. Same ignorant prejudices.

Unfortunately, the biases are real, and if they lasted this long, they'll continue forever.

My "dog in this fight" (pun really not intended) is that I'm trying to define my choice of the next dog, and the activities that are the highest priorities for the dog, family, and me. It may be that I'm not being realistic about the ability to use one dog for all of the activities that I could be active in. Looks to me like I'm going to have to choose: pro-social (therapy dog, CGC, OB, agility) versus "anti-social" (protection sports, PPD), even though a good dog might could do both.

It's the humans, not the dogs that provide the constraints.

I love this forum. No other place on the planet provides information like this one.

Aaron - thanks for your opinions - it's helping me form mine.

 Quote: rob abel

My "dog in this fight" (pun really not intended) is that I'm trying to define my choice of the next dog, and the activities that are the highest priorities for the dog, family, and me. It may be that I'm not being realistic about the ability to use one dog for all of the activities that I could be active in. Looks to me like I'm going to have to choose: pro-social (therapy dog, CGC, OB, agility) versus "anti-social" (protection sports, PPD), even though a good dog might could do both.

Rob,

One thing to keep in mind is how competive you are and how well you want to do in whatever activities you choose to do with your dog.

Excelling at any specific sport or activity takes a lot of time and dedication. If you don't care that much about titles or placements, well then, fine, not an issue. But, if you want to do well and enjoy competing, then pick the activity that truly appeals to you and put the lion's share of your efforts there.

Obedience is a given . You'll need that as a basis for whatever else you do, so there will be significant time invested here. Then you add your main or primary activity...right there, a lot of your available training and practice time is taken up. Then, if you want to add another activity, great.

As far as the dog goes, find the best quality pup you can. I really don't see any conflict between doing protection sports and other things (what you refer to as pro-social), tho if you are really gone on doing therapy work, they often don't allow it (as you've discovered already). (Disclaimer: I am not talking about a very serious PPD type dog here, but rather, the more typical sport type.)

And, you also have to take into acount what your dog likes and thrives in, which is another good reason to decide what you want to do ahead of time and then try to find a breeding that is likely to produce the kind of dog with which you'll be most happy/likely to find the partner you need to do those activities.

leih

Hi Rob

The Website is desperately in need of updating but SDA is no longer with UKC. At least now my girls can trial when in heat!

The PA is a no bite, no out exercise. Basically it tests if your dog will alert on command, alert on a threat, will unalert (Sorry, still on my first cup of coffee--can't think of a better way to word it LOL) and if you can control your dog.

Kind of what we tell the majority of people is all they need, PP wise.

The ob portion is very similar to a BH with only a few minor differences.

SDA is a lot of fun and is attracting a lot of talented people. If you have a club near you check it out!

I train my dogs in basic Rally also and find that the two work well with each other.

doh, that website is a little aged, isn't it?

SDA does look like an organization that offers some excellent programs. Unfortunately, at least per the website listings, there are no clubs in AZ.

As to the point of the PA - that's sort of my thinking as well - alert (both owner present and owner absent) is the most valuable activity a dog can serve for security purposes for MOST people.

One other factor I haven't looked into yet is liability status of a dog depending upon the owners training/handling. I suppose it's possible that bitework training is the dividing line that judges/courts use in evaluating who pays for stitches and, of course, pain and suffering for the trauma suffered when some loser decides to enter the wrong back yard to steal a tool or something, and ends up a "raw diet" snack when the dog was doing nothing but the job he was trained to do. I'll do a search on this forum and see what I come up with - likely it's been discussed in the past.

Hearing the description, it sounds like the PA is similar to a BH + WH in Schutzhund.

Betty,

I went to watch a SDA trial in California. It is (was) new out here and people from many different dog sports went to watch. I was shocked that UKC separated from it. And, since that happened, I haven't heard any more about it. I hope that it does continue to grow. If I had the opportunity, it would be on my "to do" list.