Jason
Thanks for the encourging and enlightening input. We share more then just eastern inspired minds and you don't waste yourself on macho b.s. I appreciate your help with my dog, you understand that I only want to travle the path of least resistance. I'll try your method on the present and future dogs. This is the kind of input that I need and that is valuable not comparing ball size.


Bigdbla
Again your experince and input is much appreicated. This is the kind of information that can help me and that is needed on this forum. You are a very strong person, you are not threaten by anothers being, or lack of experince. Your input is only meant to help and I feel enlighten by your empathy of a like experince and resloution. I am inspired by your comment " Never let them win", were you ever a Drill Sagrent? Much Thanks.

Richard Cannon
I appreciate your thoughful kick in the butt that what I need and want. If I made or am making a mistake, correct me. This is the type info I need. I don't mind feeling inadequate as long as I gain knowledge. Nobody likes making mistakes especially if it effects your dogs trust and love. I don't have the knowledge that you and the better trainers have. I know I will make plenty of mistakes during this process. But I have no ego, in regrads to my level of competence as a dog trainer. And the information from a highly regarded source is indeed appreciated.

Jason, Bigdbla, & Richard thanks for your insight. Chuck F that was funny, thanks I didn't know it sound like that, VanCamp confirms your view somewhat. I was just trying to "Never let him win", stealing a quote from a knowlegdable man. It was a mistake, but a point made.

Vancamp though you are a fine dog trainer, you need to grow some. This is not a play ground were we challenge each other like little boys, it is forum to learn, even you can do so. I'm only asking for your help, not how big is your gun.

Don,

I think a better philosophy is never give up, you will get into trouble with this dog if you go at him with the aproach of "never let him win", sometimes your just not in a position to win. As Richard was pointing out, the nunchuck case should have been diverted because you were not in the best position at the time to "win." I would guess that China felt the same way when Khan invaded, they lost that battle (or so Khan thought) but through persistence and persuasion, China prevailed in the long run.
The wise general always choses the battle ground. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jason, man I need your help!
You maybe right, you know he growled at me again at 3 yrs old. I was feeding them and I was real late, he went into the down position and waited for my "get it" command.

But I was having trouble getting the female Rottie to down and wait(she gets excited when food is around, she was circling me). While my attention was on the her, he went for his bowl and started eating.

When I told him to get out of the bowl and stop, he looked over his shoulder and growled. I change my voice to a deeper tone and pickup a 2 x 4 hit it against the wall and said out. He dropped his head and came to me put head between my legs (Now this took a lot of trust and went into a down), I read GSD pretty good. I stepped back and asked him to move back in position away from the bowl into the down, side by side, with Rottie.

Then I release them to eat, through all this the female Rottie stayed in the down. She is stubborn but does not like being bitched at.

This hasn't happen in awhile but he still will defy me if I'm wrong. We play alot I wonder if he starting to see me as less then Alpha or was he just hungry. I usually feed them at 7:00 am and again at 7:00 pm, it was 11:00 pm this time.

What do you guys/girls think? And how would you have handled this, then and what to do in the future. More Ob????

I really think that the multiple dogs, analogy of R.Cannon maybe a factor here. Saying that he didn't like waiting on her.

Don,

Yes obedience is the answer for this situation. Again you have set up a bad situation and handled it poorly. The thought of picking up a 2x4 is again a very poor choice. The dog will interpret this as a weapon and if nothing else provide an indication to the dog that you require it to control his behavior.

The failure in this case is attempting to enforce commands on both dogs when you have no available correction. based on your descrition this is not a proofing situation, but a training situation. That means leashes so you can make a correction and enforce the command. Next time do it with a leash on both dogs so you can correct as necessary. In this case you may have to train this behavior seperately for the dogs. The next step would be to go to a tab lead, and then no lead when BOTH dogs are solid.

If you find something in your hand other than a leash, you are wrong. You will have already lost the battle, it will have happened based on the fact that you were unprepared for the situation. If you are going to train, be prepared or accept the error. One mistake will not permenantly destroy the training. Just make sure you get it right the next time, and from that point forward.

Don,

I always make my dogs do their obedience before I will even put their food down for them. I also feed them seperately.

I would back up a few steps in training/bonding with this male. I think it's time to get out the hot dogs again. A dog must believe that disobeying you is not a good idea. You can accomplish this with propper corrections. At least as (or more) important though, the dog must also believe that obeying to you is the most rewarding thing that he can do. You can accomplish this with hot dogs.

I would put away the idea of corrections for a while and go out and buy a pack of hot dogs. Make obedience fun for this dog. Make him do the down excercise over and over again with no corrections, if he does not obey, then he does not get rewarded, that's all. (HAVE YOUR WIFE DO THIS WITH HIM TOO!!) I think you would do better with him if you gave him more (fun) reasons to obey you. This will be easier for you if you do this every day in a controled training session, rather than trying to do it throughout the day in the house. (this way you can leave all of the things that have created conflicts at home, so you will be better prepared to do it right)

Work with them seperately and (VERY IMPORTANT) do not give them commands unless you have their leash and/or treats/food in your hand. This is a hard one! I am guilty of this all the time, although I am getting better. Good luck and remember; their is more than one way to win the war.

I hope this is good advice. This is what I would try anyway.

I’m closing this thread before it gets out of hand again. Nunchucks and Samaria swords are not dog training tools. And posting a series of separate posts for each response to a member makes a thread very difficult to follow. Please review some of Ed’s training tapes. Good luck.