My 4 yr old GSD male has been on pancreatic enzymes for three years. For his size he should ideally weigh about 85 - 88 lb.s I think -- he weighs about80, vacillates between 78 - 81. You can see his ribs. HOW CAN I FATTEN HIM UP? He well-adjusted, high energy, very high play--drive -- I just hate to see him so thin. I feed him 1-1/4 cups Honest Kitchen Force or Embark and 1-1/4 cups raw ground beef twice a day, with vitamins, fish oil, etc. Thanks -- Michael

 Quote: Michael Reis

My 4 yr old GSD male has been on pancreatic enzymes for three years. For his size he should ideally weigh about 85 - 88 lb.s I think -- he weighs about80, vacillates between 78 - 81. You can see his ribs. HOW CAN I FATTEN HIM UP? He well-adjusted, high energy, very high play--drive -- I just hate to see him so thin. I feed him 1-1/4 cups Honest Kitchen Force or Embark and 1-1/4 cups raw ground beef twice a day, with vitamins, fish oil, etc. Thanks -- Michael

For EPI? Well managed?

Does he eat all that you offer?

Connie -- thanks for your reply. we just brought a new GSD home so I've been re-occupied! Yes, the enzymes are for EPI. The vet prescribed VioKase and after two years we switched to BioCase which is half the price and seems to have almost identical ingredients and seems equally effective. I don't know what you neam by well-managed. His only symptom is that he's thin. Hois coat is good, energy is high, etc. He eats what I feed him. If I increase the quantity further -- either more raw meat or more honest kitchen or more frequent eggs, sardines, etc. he soon starts leaving a little. Generally he is more play-0driven than food driven. Thanks for any advice. Michael

I have a 4 1/2 year shepherd, who also seems to have the same issues, or at least some of them. He maintained a 92lb weight since he was about 3 years. All of the sudden he dropped 20lbs, his undercoat fell out for the most part and developed severe stomach issues, skin issues and sever ear infections. He was tested for allergies, which came back with him being very food allergic. I have always made his food from human quality food. But he came back allergic to chicken, so now he has been on beef and vegetables and the allergy issues have gone away. My problem is his weight varies from 72-78 lbs on almost a bi-weekly basis. I have had to increase his intake from 1.5lbs a day to 3lbs, the ratio is 2:1 beef to vegetables (carrots, red beans, potatoes) just to keep weight on him. He would eat till he bursts if I let him. He is constantly hungry. He has been tested for just about every thing the vet can think of at great expense. He came back EPI negative, cancer negative, and all his blood work is well within healthy levels. He has gotten progressively more lethargic over the past 6 months and sleeps well more than a shepherd should. I have put him on Viokase, just as a last resort, if it were to work how long does it usually take to make an impact. Is there any way to fatten this boy up. Thank you in advance for any information.

Michael, there is much to address here.

What kind of allergy test was done? I strongly suspect that it was a blood test, and I can tell you immediately that the RAST and ELISA (blood) tests, while they have improved recently for dogs, for non-food allergies, are not useful for food allergies. (Food allergies are also the least likely allergies a dog can have.)

Quote from Drs. Foster and Smith: (emphasis mine)
"Blood Testing: There is no evidence that blood tests are accurate for the diagnosis of food allergies. Veterinary dermatologists insist that there is no merit in these tests whatsoever in the diagnosis of food allergies. The only way to accurately diagnose food allergies is with a food trial as detailed above. While the intradermal skin testing is excellent for diagnosing atopy (inhalant allergies) it is ineffective for food allergies. While specialized blood tests can be used to help in the diagnosis of atopy, they have no benefit in diagnosing food allergies. In our review of all the current books and articles on veterinary dermatology and allergies, we could not find a single dermatologist that endorsed anything other than the food trial as an effective diagnostic aid. If you want to diagnose and treat food allergies you must do a food trial."
from http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2082&aid=143

That could not be much clearer, and it agrees with every vet med manual I have, and every authoritative vet web site on the subject.

Second is a big question, too: How are you supplying digestible bone in sufficient quantity with a raw beef diet? If it's cooked, what kind of calcium are you adding?


But these issues are probably not as important as the lethargy and the EPI-like hunger.

How was EPI ruled out? I ask because there's more than one test. Was it the Serum Trypsin-like Immunoreactivity Test, the Fecal Protease Test, or the Fecal Elastase Test?

All I mean to do here is to maybe trigger some consideration of a second opinion. If the dog does have EPI and if it can be well managed, then I know you want to know that.


I'm not a health professional.


I want to add that I feel very sympathetic; this must be beyond difficult and frustrating.



ETA:
Welcome to the board, too.




Edited by Connie Sutherland (08/31/2010 05:20 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thank you so much for responding. The allergy tests were conducted by shaving a portion of his abdominal area each individual test was essentially a needle prick with the allergen approx 90. Under UV light and physical examination the irritations were seen. He was a mess, I am also not a vet, so I consulted his primary, and a specialist was identified. Not sure if that means much given some of the information I receive from time to time. The EPI test was a Serum Trypsin test. All levels seemed to be good. They actually administered the test twice, with a week apart. The calcium supplement is a calcium citrate variety, since his stomach is so weak it seemed a better choice althought not as concentrated. He receives 1200mg a day. Poor guy has never had great health, stomach issues as a pup, which turned out to be a serious bacterial infection, terrible ear infections he would shake his head so hard that he actually ruptured capillaries in his ear and developed a blood clot the size of a golf ball which had to be lanced and now has 1 terribly happy ear, and the chewing of the paws and constant scratching, the allergies seem to have subsided and these symptoms have diminished greatly with a change in his diet. Beyond that he is an amazing animal, the best I have ever had. I always fed him chicken and vegetables, the vet did mention that food allergies are difficult to recognize but the beef seems to have taken care of that. The hardest part is keeping up with his appetite, preparing his food takes time, I prep a week’s worth sometimes more and vacuum seal and freeze it. The good thing is I do catering as a side business, so I get it all at wholesale prices. I never use ingredients that I would not consume myself. Thanks again for any information.

The EPI test was a Serum Trypsin test. All levels seemed to be good. They actually administered the test twice, with a week apart.

And he was fasted for the test?


The calcium supplement is a calcium citrate variety, since his stomach is so weak it seemed a better choice althought not as concentrated. He receives 1200mg a day.

That sounds a little light on the calcium, but it's gauged by food amount, so I can't be sure. That is, a pound of boneless food would require about 900 mg of calcium.

But that's minor, I think.

Has the vet ever addressed the dog's pancreas before with you?

Michael, I know you're suffering through a lot of questions and not much help, but I can explain that. In a healthy dog who happens to be a "poor keeper," many (maybe most) people who know something about canine nutrition would suggest added fat. Healthy dogs use raw fat very well, almost the way healthy humans use complex carbs.

But these symptoms sound so EPI-like, and a pancreas problem (pancreatic acinar atrophy) is the most common cause of EPI in dogs (and GSDs are the majority of EPI sufferers).

And that greatly complicates the "fat" topic.

This, in addition to the other health challenges the dog has faced, is the reason for the lack of immediate responses like "more raw fat, added gradually."

And now you are seeing chronic lethargy. To me, this all means (I'm sorry) another vet visit.

How long ago was the Serum Trypsin test?





PS
I wish I could be more help. Or any help.

Thank you, the test was administered twice. He was fasted I believe for 12-14 hours prior to each test. The frustrating part is that with all the visits, they cannot find anything wrong with the boy. His vet is also very frustrated with the lack of a smoking gun, and has been very supportive and patient with me as I research and ask tons of questions. He actually cuts me quite a break on tests, boarding etc. The dog seems happy as ever, I am just worried that the lack of nutrients is going to start to take its toll on his body, I just made another batch of food last night and am going to let him eat as much as he wants for a couple weeks along with the supplement to see what happens. Everything points to his pancreas, but and I had been worried about that for a long time. One of the techs has a shepherd with the same issues and he is EPI positive, but doing better. The guy just looks so unhealthy, I am hoping that his coat fills in this winter. Also a scope was suggested as a last resort, to attempt to rule out any bowel/crohns type issue. But I do not want to put him under again. This could also be a problem, there are days when his stomach is acting up, when he just cannot hold it, I have kept a record, those days/weeks he just seems to pant very heavy, and his respiration is very rapid even in his sleep. That could point to some kind of flare up. Thanks again for all the input. I will let you know what happens in the next couple weeks.

Oh forgot with may rambling, the tests were approx 3 months ago. I may have another one in a month or so after he has been on the supplement to see if there are any changes.

Michael, yes, please do let us know.

I'm so sorry. What a misery for both of you.

The detailed log, BTW, is an excellent thing to do. I wish I had realized the value of a log with training, with health issues, with allergies, and with everything else that involves trial and error, many years (decades) before I did.