It's me again...Mine is a Guardian, I think it works wonderful and does just what I need it to do. Mine is waterproof but I wouldn't take my dog swimming it it. Yes to Rabies booster (duhhh to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> )
I had the same problems with my boy,he did really good with his training hitting it right on, so I thought great I will cut him back to 1x week instead of the 3x's...I paid for it. I think she knows her limits but is doing them on her terms, like was stated before. I think the e-collar will fix alot of your problems.
If you want a better quality than the Guardian (which once again I have not had any problems with) you might be able to find the other kinds used for sale.

I find it interesting though how she won't make eye contact with you when you pick up the bodies, just out of the corner of her eye. It almost sounds like she sees anything running loose on or by your property as fair prey. How is she if you are at the park or off and away from your property-more than a block? How old is she?

Dee here a little background on her, she is 3 yrs old, I got her while looking for a GSD female puppy. The guy had sold out, but offered these Rottie/pit mix puppies. The Father & Mother were on site, I shouldn't have looked at them. As I entered the fence and kneeled down 5 of the 8 puppies charged over to greet me, we played 8 wks old Mulan left with others but came back. And you know what they say about love and the butterfly. Its been an adventure.

Comparing her to the GSD who learned everything so fast that I thought I was a good dog trainer, (until I log on here, eye opening and like a fist in the face). We'll I abused her when she was about 12 wks, she would had a problem with the down, she did it when she wanted to. I used the same technique I used on the GSD puppy, he took it well no cripping or tripping out, sorta like ok I get ya, why didn't you say so. To this day from a distance I can stomp my foot and he will down (she will too). But back to her I tried motivation thing (did have much faith in it) which gave sometimey results and I went to the stomp the leash to make her down. As a puppy she took this hard, chriping and barking but she downed. I release her and she went into the bathroom corner chripping and didn't want me to touch her. I realized then that she can't take hard correction like the GSD.

After loging on here I found that there was another way patience & motivation through this you get slower results. But a stronger bond and trust.

So this is the reason that she uses the slight of hand glance. For example I had a 12" piece of water hose that I used for bite work with the GSD and we played tug of war with.

When I presented it to the Rottie/Pit she just looked at it and moved her head out the way. When I went into the house thinking man, she just doesn't get it.

I came back out to water and feed my Water hose was seared from facet leaving about 6 inches. She gave the same sneaky look and of course the GSD was all in my face.

At one point I didn't think she would ever key on the prey item, until a Rottie guy told me to praise for raising her ears? Then her progress took off! It was a shock going from a dog like Mat the GSD, any movement in front of the leash meant get em. To I'm afraid to make a mistake what is it that you want me to do? I guess she was thinking.

While in my present I don't (I try not to) allow aggression that I don't signal. I think this is the reason why she acts that way when I clearing the yard of rodent carnage. She knows I know it was her, and if I didn't, I know now by her actions.

I would use the verbal discipline because she doesn't take the physical well, she sulks and will stay away for a while unless treats are present.

So I her messed up early with compulsion and now I'm trying to recover, I really want to know how to use the e-collar not to mess her up more.

Some people when they watch them work like her more, of course these are Rottie people (she looks like a short Rottie with little feet, but has the agility of a PBT can jump as high as my face standing straight, I'm 6'3). And to these guys a GSD has to prove his merits, is not just reputation.

Thats what I think happen? What do you think? Or better yet what should our future hold?
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Dee wrote
How is she if you are at the park or off and away from your property-more than a block? How old is she?

We walk sometimes at 1:30 am in the park after a little Ob I release them to run off leash. She in constant motion head down to the ground any animal moving she is on them. Because of the long downs and OB work the animals have enough time to get out of the way. The GSD usually will stay pretty close, he sniffs around and will give chase (if they flush out jack rabbits, squirrels and raccons all pretty fast) but will always come back to check on me. She will come to my side after we do our 2-3 laps, then she does a good informal heel.

I can call them off these chases, when the animal duck into the woods or climbs a tree. Maybe they come back because they know they can't catch them??? Naw they come back because I said so? Right. This Alpha/trainer stuff is tricky. Is coming back the most important thing, or should it be immeadiately right after you open you mouth.

What usually happens is at a full charge, I issue the command, the full run turns, to a trout then a U turn and return at my side or sit in front of me depending if I'm moving.

They don't stop in their tracks and return, is this how it suppose to be????

Don, I hope you don't mind if I sort of butt in on your post, but a similar thing happened to me today with my gsd. We were at home, 40 acres, off leash. And she took off after a deer. She normally does very good recall and other ob. In our area some people shoot dogs for roaming or chaseing deer so I want to nip this in the bud. Would the advise given to Don apply the same in my case? I thought I was ok to off leash at home with the acreage but I lost her for about 20 min while she ran into a tamarack swamp. Thanks, Matt.

Matt

I think a e-collar would sharpen her recall. Obviously it hard to practice OB with this kind of distarction daily. making it so it hard to proof, the E-collar would do it. I bought one now I have to setup a scenairo that would take her over that edge, because she usually does a good off leash recall under minor distractions.
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Don, have you worked both dogs under severe distraction? If I read your post correctly, your GSD also broke the down. It sounds like you really understand your dogs and I think the ecollar will work good for you. I doubt the poodle owner will let you use her dog as bait, but you might be able to find someone that will (or any small dog), rabbits might also work. If its in a cage(rabbit), she might not respond like she normally would, but they make a cat harness that might fit a rabbit and allow you to let it be free and more tempting to the dog(prey drive kicks in). Only problem with this senario is that rabbits can literally die of fright.

Kim

The GSD did break the down, but he didn't go after anything. I give a little leave way here, because I want them to make some decisions on there own. If I'm not watching or my back is turned I want them to warn me and take appropiate actions.

It actually came in handy 100 miles away from anything just me and them, while camping I start building the tent, I'm distracted. A stranger came behind me with a 6 foot limb make shift walking stick in hand. They waited until he was about 10-15 yrds away, and then they broke from the vehicle scaried the carp out both of us, mostly him. He dropped the stick and started back peddling, I'm glad he didn't start running. I called them off, to my side. I still don't know what his intent was, even after things settled down he couldn't tell me, what he wanted.

There was another time when the utility man was b.s.ing trying to scare me. So I want them to make decisons like that on their own, Now I do want them to have a good recalled, before contact is made. I feel pretty secure working on my land occuppied and distracted that no one can sneak upon me.

I'm not through proofing them, You are right, under distraction on the down, small moving prey they will break the down, and I have to recall them and down them again, it shouldn't happen but this where we are in training. In Mulans case she didn't come back immeadiately and this won't do. So its time for some long distance shock waves.

I think this E-collar can sharpen both of them, at different stages in training.

Sometimes I can leave them in the down for 20 minutes (no distraction) and they stay put. Of course they get a treat & praise for that.

Every step forward seems sometimes to be a momenitary step backward. Some call this progress.
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So Don, do you think I could get by with just a cheap one? All I want to do with it is make her recall off leash absolute. Also she is only a little over 7mo old, is this too young for the e-collar if I only use the low level and only for the recall? The rest of the ob I do with just the leash. Thanks Matt.

Matt
I'd suggest you get the puppy started using the leash then check his off leash after you get the correct responce. Tnen start using distractions after the puppy knows the command you can start using the e-collar. I believe the general philosophy is that the dog should know the command before he/she gets a correction for not obeying.

Use of the e-collar in the intial stage of Ob training can be done I'm sure. But I think it should be left to people that are experts i.e. Lou Castle and such. Proofing the dog off leash can be performed at 1 yr old using the e-collar.
You got to be careful not to ruin a good dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Don, thats what I was afraid of. She had been doing her recall pretty good even off leash, then I had her spayed and she was not allowed any off leash time for 10 days and after that was when I started having problems. She did it again after the time with the deer.That time she looked at me and back at the woods and then just blew me off and I had to run her down again. My place is mostly fenced with woven wire, but it's all of 40 years old so there are some holes ect. Mabey I'll have to fence the yard and forget the e-collar for now. Thanks for the info. matt.