I know typically this is a no-no however I've always wrestled with my dogs who earn the privilege (showing the appropriate amount of power, teeth, stop when I say stop, ect). It gives me a good chance to practice my "dog language". I've always had an interest in this. I used to imitate (and still do automatically now) the moves I saw dogs and wolves do with I was a little kid around my childhood dog. I think it made a different since I've never met a dog I couldn't control if given 5 minutes to work with it (note: not train...just get to calm down and be handle-able)

Recently I noticed something. We'll be horsing around and and if I roll over (as though I was "submitting" to my dog) he'll respond with a play bow and he'll usually jump on me. This is followed by a sharp amount of attention in which (with no formal reward) he will perform his OB commands as though I was holding a juicy steak in my hand. I'll let my dog "pin" me in play (he has a very solid "off" command of I wouldn't do this). I'll play completely on dog terms.

After I noticed this I started incorporating other things I observed in dog and wolves play (I watch a lot of youtube videos of canines playing) into training. I've noticed a dramatic energy change in training even when there are no frisbee or food rewards (I'm getting frisbee excitement....without the frisbee). If you watch clips of older dogs or "alpha" wolves playing with puppies or submissive pack members you'll see them roll over a lot and let the submissive member "attack" them in play. I know watching my own dog play with young puppies he typically lays down and lets them bite on him.

I've noticed no undesirable behaviors since starting this.

I'm curious if any of you have noticed this or am I just insane and my dog an oddball?

Hmmm...I don't wrestle with Vader but I have seen dogs do this while playing. My parents have two shelties and the male is the much more dominant one. He will often let the female pin him though and it's obvious they are just playing. In any other situation, he is definitely the alpha.

Jamie, that is a really interesting observation.

I don't wrestle with Chula for a variety of reasons, but I always did with my dogs growing up. (mostly because she's so big that she'd kick the crap out of me if I got down on the floor and wrestled :crazy

I wrestle with Conan all the time. He loves it. I don't think I go into the same depth of behavior you do though.

I used to wrestle with Dolly all the time as a kid. One time, though, I was at my friend's house and we were playing with her dog. I bent down in the play bow, seeing what he would do. The results weren't what I planned. He grabbed me by the back of the neck and literally shook me. I had puncture wounds on the nape of my neck and the back of my head. I think I was 10 years old. I feel very lucky that he didn't do any damage beyond the puncture wounds.

So, I think wrestling with a dog you know, with which you have practically perfect pack structure and advanced obedience on is completely fine. Doing what you do, Jamie, and having the control you have is excellent. But, I would still be careful.

I'll say too that I know this wasn't the dogs fault. It was his first human bite of many that eventually lead him to being PTS But this dog just had no training, and we were left unsupervised (her mom was just one room over). Even at 10 I learned a lot from that experience and I always had felt that it was my fault I'd gotten bit.

IME, wrestling w/Roger is the single best way to get him excited for the tug.

Just my experience, though. Roger is the ultimate "Starter Mal," and I could see this being a big problem in more particular dogs.

How cool Jamie! I wrestle with Koenig, as does my other half. We follow the same rules Ryuk has to as well. Off when we say so, etc. I've never tried throwing OB into the mix though.
Although, I bet it just has to do with drive, more so then the pinning.
Frisbee= crazy high drive super excited dog.
Wrestle= high drive super excited dog.

I won't let Koenig pin me (he weighs over 1/2 what I do! I don't care if he's got one broken canine, those teeth are still scary... lol) but I bet it is a great way to hype a dog up for some training. I'm going to go outside and try that now.

Thanks for the great idea! I never connected the 2, now it seems obvious. They are super happy when we break the 'good trainer' rules and wrestle, why not take advantage of that energy/mental focus boost, and train!!


SO now I re-read your post. You're also seeing this energy change in training w/o the wrestling being involved? Wow. May be more to it then I thought. I'm working on phasing out treats/toys on Koenig's heel right now. You could be on to something, for those of us willing to get down and dirty with our dogs.

Jamie, maybe you could post a video? I would be very interested to see it. Though at this point I can safely say that Faroh would maul me given the chance, so I won't be trying it any time soon!

rofl!!

Every party needs a pooper and I think this time it might be me.

I'm pretty sure Thor knows I am not a dog and in the words of my 19 year old son would recognize me as a "poser" if I decided to behave like one. I'm not too concerned with submitting or otherwise when we play.....after all we're playing...its fun..time to let your hair down.

So how do we play? (Poor dog) I sing and wrestle and dance and he follows suit...sometimes we howl simultaneously especially during "Hunk of Burning Love" by Elvis. And then I stalk him to the Pink Panther Theme. Those are his two favorites I see all of the things that you recognize but I think it is this special play time we share not my use of dog or wolf behavior. It is our bond dog to human and vv which is motivating. Not to say I'm missing a much bigger picture but I think I'll stick with my human ways because what I love most about Thor is his dogginess and perhaps he finds my humaness as endearing.

And I agree with Kate; this type of play is only something I would be comfortable doing with a dog I know well. I'd be wary of offering dog or human overtures to a dog I do not know.

I'm with you, Sheila.

Turbo see's me as a dog about as much as a tennis ball is a rabbit.

I'd bet it has more to do with the handler's level of excitement than any actual communication going on.

Not that this is a bad thing. Whatever gets the dog motivated.