Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
OK, so what is the best puppy results for a FNG trainer? I don't know, I think you get stuck with the bottom of the barrel, not necessarilly a pup selected specifically for you. That would be my bet with a lot of breeders. Still may get a good pup, but not the best one.

pretty much, you get last pick if you're a newbie, unless you can convince a breeder that you will do absolutely right by the dog, and have training contacts, and etc etc. But, even some of the "non pick" pups are some good dogs. You also can get bumped up in status if you're the first one calling about a litter (with intentions of putting down a deposit immediately) and if you're a decoy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You people on the General Mills bankroll or somethin'? If not, you should be. I'm inexplicably in the mood for toasted oat rolls.

 Quote:

Want to know the scoring for a dog for someone for PP vs one for SchH, then ask that question, don't throw a bunch of assumptions in.

Ok then. Scores other than 1s in which test(s) lend themselves to- or have little bearing on PP and SchH respectivly?

Example...

Test 6. All other things being equal between two puppies; to which person will the passive puppy (result #1) go? To which will the puppy with the aggressive result (#2) go? PP or Sport? Both results are apparently "positive".

Or Test 3. What's the adult manifestation (as it practically applies in sport or PP) of a puppy with better or worse retrieving tendencies...other than just joyfully retrieving stuff...if anything?

Etc.

Kurze Haare

The first thing I would recomend is looking at your lifestyle and goals, and begin by selecting a breed that matches. For instance if your primary goal is sport work, I would look at a GSD over a Giant or Mal. For protection work I would look at a BRT over a GSD for a beginner. The reason for this is that the GSD is better suited for sport work and is more forgiving than many of the other breeds. Dogs bred for sport or general work will have adequate prey drive with out it being so high that the dog is hard to live with. You can find one that is less likely to have big rank issues, that are difficult to deal with for a beginer. For a PP dog the advantage of the BRT is that they haven't been bred for sport, they are still a PP/guard dog. The prey dirve isn't sky high and they have very balanced drives, with a good level of defense. They are also not likely to have rank issues and are tough enough to be fairly forgiving in training. The tough thing with this breed is going to be finding a trainer will to work with the lower level of prey drive. Good puppy work will help compensate for the lower natural drive.

The second thing I would look for is going to be a trainer for the dog. Often finding a good trainer that knows what they are doing is more difficult than finding a dog. Spend some time with eyes and ears open, and mouth shut to see how the dogs are worked and the results of the clients/members dogs. Also keep in mind the likelyhood that you will get along with the trainer long term. This is usually a fairly long relationship. Get a solid knowledge of the trainers "resume" for when you call a breeder. For any puppy buyer there will be a better chance of getting what you want if you have a clear idea of what you enat the pup for AND have located a trainer to help you get there before you approach the breeder. The thing that most breeders are concerned about is what is going to happen long term with a pup. If you have done your homework before you approach the breeder they are more likely to put a better puppy with you because you have already demonstrated that you have made long term plans and have a plan. For a new trainer getting the dog first and then thinking about a trainer will create problems because you may not find the trainer you want in a timely fashion. The trainer may also be willing to help select a puppy for you.

Then select a breeder that has a fairly long history of producing good working dogs. That history is going to be tougher in some breeds than others. As a result of that type of breeding the differences are going to be smaller in the litter than in a breeder that is just starting out. That means that it isn't going to matter much which puppy you get. All are probably going to make an acceptable and functional dog for your purposes. They will also provide good training experience.

Once that is done then think about puppy selection. My primary concerns in selecting a puppy is going to be prey drive, confidence in the puppy, and an indication that the puppy is going to be fairly forgiving in training. On the test holding the puppy on it's back what I want to see is not a puppy that just accepts the position (the exception is a puppy that has been placed in this position as a portion of enviornmental training). I want a puppy that will initially struggle against the position, then accept it, and then start to struggle after a period of time. This type of pup is going to have enough attitude to be forgiving in training and not going to accept being pushed around by anybody. I wouldn't worry too much about the retrieve test because with a dog with good prey drive you are going to be able to teach the retrieve even if the dog isn't a natural retriever.

Ok, I guess I can chime in now.

Yes, I do the Flinks test. Also, BTW, Van Camp, I have a dog who scored all 1's. His name is Alex. Bernhard did the test himself in Albuquerque, about 18 mo ago. He is a fun dog.

Anyway, there are several things that go into consideration when selecting a pup for someone. At least in my house. There is the order of deposits. There is also my belief in the person on the other end of the phone. Also, are they going to compete. How else will my dogs become well known unless on the field. Then there is the test.

For instance, I have a breeding upcoming Danu/CJ.(Kevin is going to Germany tomorrow so looks like it may be Danu/Rocky) but anyway, just about everyone on this board at least has heard about the last litter. So I am undated with people wanting that litter. I would say most people I have to tell no. It is my job and my responsibility to place the right pup with the right person. I had someone tell me the test results they wanted, out of which litter. After spending some time talking to them, I suggested another litter with different results. They didn't like the idea but after some coaching took it. I got a call back saying thank you for sending them the perfect pup. They could'nt have asked for anything better. Now, if I would have sent what they wanted. I probably would already have the pup back.

Not many people can handle a pup who is straight 1'2. Heck even mostly ones and some 2's can be downright difficult. My Mara/Dar litter, the squeeze the paw. NO ONE even flinched. The guy doing the tests fingers were turning white and no one moved. Now thats hard. Should they go to someone inexperienced. NO!!!

For what I consider a good dog for sport, would also be a good dog for PP or PSD. I want a dog to do it for real. I like knowing my wife can take Rocky, Dar, Lery, Alex, Rena, Katy, Bowie, Cala, Danu, Mara(you get the point) with her wherever she goes and there is no question the dogs will work for real. I also, add in she can handle the dogs. Some of you have met her. She is not a dog person and can still handle the dogs as I have cleared the rank issues. Still working on my new one though.LOL

So back to the original question. If you have a knowledgable breeder you are way ahead of the game. Let them pick the pup based on them talking to you. You tell them what you want let them tell you what you can have. (Never hurts when they offer a guarantee(shameful plug for me)) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Todd Check PM

Ditto to Richard.

Richard,
A very level headed post with common scence <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I want Kurze to know these few things!
Didn't feel like starting a new message <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I knew nothing about working K9's in 83 until I went to Germany. I loved the GSD "BUT" I knew being new to working a K9 in Schutzhund or Police Service Work which I did for many years there, a GSD was too much for me so I picked a female Giant Schnauzer now deceased 17yrs old <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and trained her to a SCH3,AD,FH,Best of Breed and Klub Seigerien in Schweinfurt,FRG. and then to SAR,with lots of help from my Schutzhund Klub in Ochsenfurt,Germany she was great and we had tons of fun through the years BUT I made my mistakes with a very forgiving <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> dog,Now I have had GSD's for years haven't found any good working Giants lately <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Anyway you do need to have guidance in training and find a breed that works for you and set a goal but do it in steps and take your time! ask questions there are alot of people here on the board with tons of knowledge use what works for you!Look for a local club in your area.
Also your life style will dictate your training of your K9, do you have the TIME :rolleyes:
Anyway enough lecturing, I know you will use your head. Remember these tests used on puppies are not full proof, so ask breeders and trainers with knowledge.Decide on what you want the dog for and set your goals and like others have said don't get yourself into something to tense that it won't be fun for you and your dog !
These are only my opinions! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Be safe
Lewis and Argo/Riley