Quote: ian bunbury

there are appropriate behaviours in appropriate places . the ex-pen in the house shows the dog that he has some freedom to get up , move around , view the activities going on around him , essentially be a part of the household , but without the unlimited freedom to roar around the house , possibly causing trouble which you then have to correct or deal with to varying degrees.

My prior GSD's had separate oversized crates. They'd sleep there and generally rest there unless it was too hot and they wanted to lay down on the tile floor. They also generally were told to go to their "house" while we were eating or if we had visitors (strangers or friends uncomfortable around dogs).

Frankly, I am having trouble locking into the idea of two dogs being problematic because of my prior experience. Maybe I got lucky? Maybe a spayed/neutered male and female pair is OK?

I didn't have kids when I had my first GSD's and worked at night. I would easily spend four hours a day nearly every day with them going to the park (not doggie parks, almost ever), walking around Santa Monica (beach area) or the Promenade area (outdoor pedestrian shops). A good portion of that time was spent training. So I ask myself is this is the reason why there was no doggie sub-pack problem with them, ever. When my kids came into the picture there was never, ever, any incident of any kind to even begin to suggest that we could have a problem with the dogs. At the same time, dog-kid play was always supervised.

Again, I am open minded and would really like to wrap my head around this. I don't have the time I used to back then and this leads me to wonder if I am more likely to have issues with two GSDs now that I did not have then. I may be able to devote two hours a day three to five days a week, depending on workload (I do work out of the house, which helps).

Thanks for all the comments and opinions.

yup martin i was in the same boat when i had my first working BC , nearly 20 years ago . no kids and in fact i was unemployed for the first 6 months of that dogs' life with me so i , along with another similarly unemployed patroller spent all day , nearly every day doing dog stuff : OB , tracking , agility and looong hikes in challenging terrain .

that dog didn't have enough energy at the end of the day to get into anything so he was happy to see a crate . . . he knew there wouldn't be any more work until i came to get him ! looking back on it now , i did too much too soon with that guy . . . he never got to enjoy his childhood !

i agree with your assessment of your previous situation : the better part of four hours a day spent training , nearly every day , sure would demonstrate to the dogs who is calling the shots .

i'd suggest those pens are going to be a good resource for you . considering that you will have less time to devote to the dogs , you want to ensure that you are the best thing in their lives , not each other . if they have a lot of time to be with each other , they could well start bonding more closely , so for the same reasons we separate pups from the litter at around 8 weeks , so too should you limit their access to each other . the pens help with that .

 Quote: ian bunbury

i agree with your assessment of your previous situation : the better part of four hours a day spent training , nearly every day , sure would demonstrate to the dogs who is calling the shots.

i'd suggest those pens are going to be a good resource for you . considering that you will have less time to devote to the dogs

The toughest thing is selling this concept at home. People are really ignorant about dogs. I certainly was when I got my first set of GSD's. Yes, my family always had pet dogs (mostly toy poodles, which my mother loved) but there was never any effort or need to learn anything about dog behavior. No training of any kind, really. I even remember one of those little guys biting my sister in the hand badly when she caressed him while he was eating.

But I digress. The issue here is that people tend to humanize pets and perceive things such as crates, pens and ecollars as torture of sorts. To be sure, bad pet owners can use these things to seriously traumatize and brutalize a dog. I doubt that is the case of anyone who cares enough to participate in forums such as this one.

I'll have to make a strong case at home for introducing two pens in different rooms. That about the size of it at this point. My wife didn't really spend the time I did with our prior GSD's and the trainers and, effectively, didn't go to "understanding dogs 101" because of that. So everything is emotion at this point. The same is the case with the kids. They don't really understand pack behavior and such things. My oldest one does and can learn, but the little ones probably have a Disney-esque image of what a dog might be at this point.

Any pointers?

hey martin i don't think anyone is suggesting that the pens need to be in separate rooms , just the fact the dogs are separated by a barrier that prevents free movement between them should be sufficient .

if it were my challenge , i would start them out with some separation between the pens so they can't jump up and play / tease / entertain / antagonize each other directly . perhaps put some kind of material ( 1/4" ply ) on one side so that they cannot directly see each other . i would move the pens around the room and interchange which dog was in each pen , and occasionally move one pen out of the room .

i would definitely be playing with each dog individually until i saw that each of them is looking to me as the source of food / fun / resources .

it may be overly simplistic but at this point might be helpful to draw out the "wolf pack / wolves / dogs as denning animals" to make it easier for your " human pack " to understand why you are taking the measures you are to establish your pack .

who knows , maybe ed already has this covered in a DVD somewhere lol

For me the "Yes"+ food is a method of communication. A pup is so cute, you are loving on it all the time, essentially for nothing, I think it can be hard for the pup to "get" what it is you want.
The food reward offers clarity when given with good timing.

Definitely no food reward "during" competition just as there are no corrections during competition. It's all a matter of putting behaviors together until you can do a whole routine before the marker and reward come.
The marker in itself can become reward to many dogs, at least to the point that they KNOW the reward WILL come if you give the marker. That's why I say I always mark a competition behavior. The time between mark and reward can become more then just a second or so as long as the dog KNOWS it will lead to reward. That's learned by being consistent with the training.
In shcutzhund bite work training the reward is often the dog getting to carry the sleeve off of the field.
In AKC competition the dog learns the reward will be waiting outside the ring gate.
Consistency in training!