I saw a post that mentioned this a little, but want more info. I bought Ed's ecollar for the pet owner and learned somethings, but was wondering about differences with Ellis' approach? I want to buy the Ellis video too, but need to save for my mini educator collar. The post I read said that low stim escape training is used by Ellis but ONLY when the dog knows the real basics of the command. My main reason for wanting to use an ecollar right now is for management issues the dog knows well, but I may want to strengthen obedience and bitework in the future and definitely want it as a backup for recall. My breeder who is big time in French ring uses some form of escape training, I'm hoping/guessing she is fair to her dogs, also the popular guy from SoildK9 with the free videos does low stim escape with behavior problems. He seems like a great trainer. My trainer, who works police dog training thinks escape not nick is how to train, but feels that the training methods are too easy to mess up and that I better really learn a lot first. My pup is a five month confident mal. He knows his basic obedience and recalls fast and well in medium distraction. I have only called him twice under high distraction and he paused and definitely considered not coming. I put on a major party when he comes, but am afraid to start high level distraction. My biggest fear is that he is very strange dog sharp if a dog comes tword him unleashed or near our fenced yard. He is fine in training class with over forty leashed dogs surrounding him. But is out of control on leash with strong prong collar correction when a dog is loose by our fence. I want to stop this using an ecollar BUT nick or continuous? Thanks!!! Gina

I'm not the one to answer e-collar questions but one of the reasons you see a difference between your home fence and training class with lots of dogs is because of a dog's natural inclination for protecting it's own space, being your yard.

This can also be what is sometimes called barrier aggression.

Being behind that fence can create frustration and frustration builds drive and intensity.

Thanks Bob for the new term, barrier aggression.

The barrier aggression goes for the yard, the house, the car, a pen or crate.

Some will say this is Protecting their space.

Maybe, maybe not but there are many dogs that won't do the same outside that yard, etc.

I've walked into yards where the dog is acting crazy to get me yet when the gate opens they change completely.

They may run or they may want to then play.

Hard to describe but the dog that seriously wants to get hold of you can often be as easy to read as the one that's just making a big fuss .

I've been switching different dogs in and out of my indoor crate. This seems to work great. Nobody wants to guard it. It's all the freedom that my huge yard has to offer. I'm trying to contain better, but I only have one dog run. I'm glad to be learning new ideas.

To be a truly responsible dog owner, I think, one must feel that if their dog or dogs got loose that they wouldn't do serious harm. I may live in La La land though. In my area a police K9, a Mal, did very serious damage to the leg of the officers son. So sad.

 Quote: Bob Scott

The barrier aggression goes for the yard, the house, the car, a pen or crate.

Some will say this is Protecting their space.

Maybe, maybe not but there are many dogs that won't do the same outside that yard, etc.

I've walked into yards where the dog is acting crazy to get me yet when the gate opens they change completely.

They may run or they may want to then play.

Hard to describe but the dog that seriously wants to get hold of you can often be as easy to read as the one that's just making a big fuss .

Yup.
My dog has serious barrier aggression. I do not curb it because her primary role is to guard our property in my absence. She will calm if I allow someone into her space.

When working protection with the IPO club, we encounter barrier aggression in dogs that don't have strong defense (or they have weak nerves). Sometimes the dog will go into avoidance when there is no barrier, and we will introduce agitation to them when they are behind a fence to encourage them to be confident when facing the agitator.

ETA: I've seen some decent work done in escape/avoidance with the ecollar, and I've seen some pretty crappy use of it. I don't want to come down for or against, but I will say two things about it...

1. For every dog that I've seen trained with, I've seen ten trained in the same behaviors by some other method, and

2. Escape/avoidance shows in the dog's finished performance. IPO is starting to take note and are adjusting their critique's (and scores) accordingly.

ETA: To be a responsible animal owner TO ME means that the animal does not get loose. I have seen the most playful of dogs chase a screaming kid on a bike. Even if the dog means no harm, it is still traumatic for the kid.

If your dog does bitework, you will never convince your neighbors that he is harmless.

Appreciate the information and your take Duane. At this point, I really just want the ecollar for recall back up and to get his attention before escalation with barrier aggression and prey drive stuff with animals. My trainer in a civilian class run by police dog trainers isn't so exited by ecollar training at all. It just seems like the best tool for me with my management issues.

I agree that a large, high drive dog that likes to bite sure shouldn't be getting loose. I can't stand the owners in my area that let their dogs loose. With that said, my Borsenji (Borzoi Basenji, I got at the pound) is so sneaky that she has snuck out the gate when we were busy carrying something probably 10 times. She loves to hunt rabbits.

I bet that the majority of sport dogs if they got loose wouldn't harm anyone, but I'm new to this field. I bring my Shepinois and Mal pup with me when I go out of town because I am paranoid about them getting into any trouble.

I also agree that it can be nice to have a dog with barrier aggression protecting a yard. I was all about that until my Shepinois started grabbing hold of my other dogs as they ran by. My Mal pup started that at 4 months or less. Multiple dogs with high drive sure has been another cup of tea. My Pyrenees handles the fence barking, but I have to pretty much contain my biters unless I'm around and even then I dont have it down perfectly yet!

Thanks again for reading and the input. Interesting info about barriers and agitation! So far, I've only back tied at home. My pup has all his big teeth, but the little canines wont fall out yet!

Oh, to clarify, my pup does work with the trainer I talked about in a class. So far, he is just in the puppy circle phase where I anchor him by holding the leash. His mouth hurt last time, we found out, so I took a week off. I would have done the obedience part, but I just happened to be broke too.