Hello...
This discussion site has been helping me tremendously so far. I have 22 months old male working-line German shepherd who came to me as pretty much green dog.

When he came first, he had very low toy drive, but very high food drive. Well, I have been working him building drive with ball in string for last 8 weeks. His toy drive is pretty high nowadays, that he prefer ball to food during obedience or play session at the field.

I just started foot-step tracking a week ago. Here is the problem. He is not interested in food at the scent box. He looks up and gets distracted. I live in Chicago, and don't have many places to go for tracking. I use the local baseball field where I do obedience. I try to use the different sections of the field as much as possible.

Does he need to be hungry more? I feed him raw diet. He gets 3-4 chicken backs a day. Once or twice a week, he gets regular kibbles. When he eats his food, he eats any food like an alligator.

For the tracking bait, I tried hotdogs, regular kiblles, hams. I also fed him half amount the night before tracking. Since we have not done much tracking, I also just made a 2 square-feet scent box only with bait all over the area.

He simply sniffs there a little, eating just several pieces. Then he looks at me, pulling me toward the middle of the field where I usually play with balls... I wait a few minutes there without moving, hoping him to go back to the scent box. He then come lean on me, looking a little nervous...I eventually give up frustrated as well.... Then I take him to the field to do obedience. He is happy and crazy for the balls & playing with me.... bring him home... an hour later, he is so hungry and eats like crazy...so like bad cycle continues...

1. Should I not feed him for 24 hours?
2. Should I do obedience a little bit first then do tracking, so he is not so much into playing with balls?
3. Should I totally change the location for tracking-only area?

I currently do obedience training with balls in the morning and in the evening everyday. He seems enjoying ball game so much, and got used to this everyday. Then I take him to protection training on sunday to local Sch USA club.

I know he has pretty high food drive, but I just can't get him to start, even just scent box.

Please give me some suggestions. I know I shoud be more patient, but I am frustrated not because of my dog, but because of my ignorance. One thing I have to admit is that it is very hard for me to starve him on purpose <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Again, any suggestion would be very appreciated.


Thank you.

Tae-Jun Ahn

Couple things...you definitely need to break this cycle. He's getting exactly what he wants by out-waiting you - you give up and let him go do something he considers more exciting and rewarding (obedience/ball play). He's associating the location with ball play, so I would try tracking somewhere new and do NOT introduce the ball at this site. Only track for food and leave.

Two other things I would try - since he wolfs down his dinner, I would utilize that to build a conditioned response. I would take his usual meal food and cut it up small. I'd make a large scent pad in my own yard (a low traffic spot), take him and his meal to that spot and scatter it in the scent pad, give him a 'such' command and let him have at it. I would just leave him alone to eat. Also you can condition the response to 'such' by either sitting him or holding the dog with one hand, letting him watch a piece of good food drop into the grass, say 'such' and release him to get it (you can do this at your house). After a while, he gets the connection that if you say such, there's something down there worth finding.

Also some dogs think they're supposed to pay attention to you when the leash is on, due to previous experiences. You can try going to your new site, take the dog close to the scent pad, take off the leash, toss one piece of food into the scent pad, say such, and let him alone. Don't even look at him. Just look off in the distance and ignore him, turn your back, whatever. Make him think he has no responsibility towards you, you're not interested in what he's doing. Some dogs will relax and track nicely once they don't feel like they have to pay attention to you.

Thanks, Lee... I would definitely try your suggestions and ideas.

However, I live in the apartment(hardwood floor) with no frontyard unfortunately. I have some green area(local park, baseball field, etc). Chicago has lots of parks, so I guess I would have to hunt down couple just for tracking....

I have never been to Sch trial before, but don't they do obedience and tracking at the same field? That's why I asked if I should do obedience first, have him sit at the crate for a while(15 minuts?) then try tracking at the distinctively different section of the park?

TJ

If you can just find a patch of grass just 6' square, you've got enough to do the scent pad exercises at home, but maybe you don't even have that. There's no reason you can't teach a such command in your apartment tho. Take an old blanket or comforter that you're willing to sacrifice - wad it up into a twisted heap about 4' square. Take your food and push pieces of it into the crevices and folds of the blanket. Then bring the dog in, tell him such, drop a piece into a fold of the blanket and let him nuzzle and dig out the pieces of food. All we're looking for is an association that the word such means there's something worthwhile down there to find.

Originally posted by TaeJun Ahn:
I have never been to Sch trial before, but don't they do obedience and tracking at the same field? Hi TJ,

No, the tracking is done in a different location. Obedience and protection will be done on the same field.

Boy, it worked~ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lee, thank you. Lisa, thank you.

This morning, he did great! He tracked three multiple scent pads with a foot apart very well. I changed three things.

1. I did the obedience first, and came back home. I ate my usual breakfast first.

2. I cut his raw chicken back to small pieces right in front of him, drooling and whining for food <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

3. I went to different baseball park behind the audience stand, and lay the track with raw chicken pieces.

Boy, he immediately seek for food. He tracked pretty well to the third scent pads, eating every pieces. Right before he finished the last couple of pieces, I pulled him with praise, then took him to the car and came back home. I then fed the left-over bone part of the chicken back.

Couple of more questions, please..
1. How long should I continue with raw-chicken? Kind of messy, you know :rolleyes: But it was very well-done I think.
2. How often should I do this? I am excited
should I feed him at the tracking site for a while?

Breaking a bad cycle is not only hard for him but also tough for me, too. Everything feels somewhat awkard to change the pattern of everything...

TJ

How long to continue with a high value food is tricky. Using a terrific food builds a VERY strong, positive association with the tracking; the drawback is that once he expects chicken and only gets hot dogs or whatever, the drop in the value of the reward is significant and can impact his enthusiasm for the track. I think I would immediately (next track) do a mix of chicken and whatever you plan to use on a regular basis (hot dog, liver, Biljac, whatever). If he is still enthusiastic, I would keep cutting the proportion of chicken down steadily and rapidly until he is only on your normal bait. One caveat - just cuz the owner decides he wants to use hot dogs doesn't mean the dog LIKES hot dogs. You have to find something that you can afford and is relatively convenient, but at the same time serves as a strong reinforcer for the dog. If you see a significant drop in enthusiasm as the chicken goes away, don't give up right away. Try your normal bait for 3-4 days. If he still shows no interest, then try different foods.

I would track every day if you are able.

Lee,
Thank you so much for your thorough explanations.
I will keep working on your suggestions, and please allow me to bug you again when I have troubles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You are the best! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TJ

Lee,
Thank you so much. So far so great!
The tracking has been pretty good. This morning, he tracked 8 feet with two scent box(start and the end), just ham only. I have been writing log book on every detail of tracking(temp, bait, track condition, how he performed, and so on).

I do obedience first, then come home. Rest a little, then have him look at me cutting the ham into pieces. When I take him to different location in the car, I leave the Zipper bag with ham pieces in front of his crate (this idea was borrowed/modifeid from one of Mr. Frawley's replies for other tracking question a while ago). I tease him a little when I lay the track, then bring him to the tracking. Motivation level is 180 degree changed compared to 3 days ago. Unbelievable~ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />