Jerry/Dave. I don't quite understand the term Defensive Aggression. Give me your meaning of this term. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

When the dog is in Defense Drive and becomes aggressive isn't this the change to Fight Drive.

So much to learn!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Defense means that the dog recognizes a threat... that he could be hurt... as a result, part of the motivation to bite comes from fear.

I was always taught that the only way a dog would reliably bite for REAL (no sleeve) was through defense... for years I believed that... now I just don't know.

I am starting to question everything that I once believed... does the dog have to be afraid in order to bite? Is defense really necessary at all? I just don't know anymore.

I am starting to question everything that I once believed... does the dog have to be afraid in order to bite? Is defense really necessary at all? I just don't know anymore.

Lets stop calling things drives for a minute Dave. A dog can learn the mechanics and even routines in protection work all through the desire to chase things, suits, sleeves, people. Dogs can have the feeling they are chasing a rabbit just like they do if you throw a ball. If they suddenly feel something different than the social games and chasing feelings they have had before they either become afraid of that change or they feel challenged by it and respond. If they are afraid we either teach them not to be by conditioning them that everything will be all right, or some people will teach them that it will only be allright if they keep their mouth full of the thing that had always made them feel good (escape and avoidance). If they feel challenged and respond by heightened intensity in their behaviors we gradually increase this feeling (we also get intensified because we have found one of those rare dogs that do this) during the work. This feeling they have is not fear.
Now each dog has a set of attributes and some can have all of these I listed to different degrees. At what point we see these behaviors arrise when we're working with these dogs is what determines which ones we use and which techniques work best. To complicate matters even more you have a variety of sports which judge attributes differently dictating which dogs and training techniques are best suited to each sport.
I train Schh and Police. I know that the way I train for schh is good for police work (which came first, the chicken or the egg I guess), but I also know that if I were to train this way for NVBK I would get blown out of the water, FR I could slip by on and I would do OK in MR lower levels with my current work. If I were to stop doing SchH and police and do Ring I would change my training immensely. Are you more or less confused now?

As been stated French Ring is a sport. Plain and simple. The dogs there are no more for real then a schutzhund dog. You will find some really street worthy dogs in both sports. The French Ring just requires more condtioning to certain things. But just because a dog is in the FR does not mean it will kick-butt in a real-life situation. The same goes for the KNPV dogs also.
Anyone that has told you that when starting a dog in protection, and pretty much as a reward for most of the dogs training, that the carry is wrong, does not understand any protection training, not matter what sport or disipline they are training. This is just the same as people in an earlier post saying that the focus heeling is useless, and not correct training. They obvouisly do not know what they are writting about. There is also a common mis-belief that a dog that only bites a suit, will bite for real. A suit is nothing more really then a big sleeve, to the prey dog. There are certain "experts" on this board that have stated that they don't train a dog to bite a sleeve, only a suit because the suit is the way to go to train a dog to bite for-real, a sleeve will only teach a dog to bite a sleeve; nothing is further from the truth.

Kevin wrote: "some people will teach them that it will only be allright if they keep their mouth full of the thing that had always made them feel good (escape and avoidance)"

Kevin can you clarify a little bit, for dumb old me?

He means that you teach the dog to feel OK by biting some it likes.

Robert