Tim

Do you care as much about the working ability of other show dogs that once worked - probably not. Yeah I do. My first dog was a Kelpie from working bloodlines she always looked so different from the city dogs. And so I found out just like the GSD there are two different sets of bloodlines, not only have the show Kelpies lost their working ability but they are structurally unsuitable for work too. They are really stocky compared to the working bloodlines and can't keep up with them. The same thing has happenend to border Collies. The Australian Cattle dogs (Blue and red heelers) are a joke, these dogs look more like staffys than their working ancestors. None are bred purely for work anymore, they are gone. The stockmen use Stumpy tail cattle dogs or heeler/BC or Kelpies X's, some even use Kelpies and BC's for the job.

Hi David

 Quote:

i have been reading that even the so call working dog (service dogs) that we own, are actually from the showline side of the working of germany dogs.

Where did you read that???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
It was up unto the 60's(I think someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that show and working dogs were the same but then in the 70's and especially in the 80's it all started to go down hill. The different appearances alone shows that they have beem seperate for quite some time. Looking at the pedigrees of serious working breeders you will find no show dogs(in recent years) because they are unsuitable for breeding programs focusing on working ability.
The German shepherd was supposed to be a working dog but unfortunately not all breeders strive for this.

 Quote:

The true beauty of the breed is in it's utility and working ability, period.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I agree, but unfortunately some show breeders just don't see it this way.

Thomas

I know what you are saying but i'm not so sure I agree with it, I'm really not so sure about it.
There used to be a problem in the Australian showlines with fear biters, this would never have happened if they were selecting for working ability. The breed ban on German shepherds was only lifted in the 70's here in australia and many people show and working folk wouldn't like to see that happen again. That's why i think the GSDCA is against schutzhund because it is seen as a `dangerous sport' :rolleyes: and the public will think that German shepherds are dangerous again if they particpate. So some breeders focus on breeding lovely, placid GSD's with Golden retriever like temperament. What you've described is even more unstable dogs but many of the show GSD's go into homes with children so they have a placid lab like temperament and they are stable around children.

Hi Jeff

It's not like the divide just happened suddenly it happened over a period of time as show breeders kept on selecting for conformation features instead of the traits that are needed to produce working dogs. Just look at the pictures over time of the show and working siegers, at one stage they looked the same but then they started to drift apart especially in the 70's and 80's.
There's nothing wrong with schutzhund but the fact that some dogs can be fully titled and trained only in prey drive. There defensive and fight drives are never tested. Schutzhund is a good foundation but to fully test a dogs working ability I think further training is needed.

Hi Everyone,

Just in reply to Ivan’s post about the trial, I have heard of this even happening in Germany. It certainly happens quite a bit here in South Africa. All the dog has to do with some judges is be black and red and show the ability to do the exercise, not actually complete it! The “working fraternity” leave them to get on with it. I personally feel what they are doing is not in the best interest of the GSD dog! It was also voted at our council meetings that SCHH1 is no longer a requirement for a VA male! (It is recommended though). How they kid themselves!!!!!
I also believe it is not really the fault of the dogs, I believe that 80% could get a respectable Schutzhund 1, but it is due to lazy breeders and owners who have too many dogs to show and title, because it has become a business and no longer about the breed. But in this country with it no longer being a requirement I think the temperaments will deteriorate even more which is pretty sad!
They have also decided that we no longer will have our IPO titles put on our pedigrees as it is now the same as SCHH. I wonder how they would feel if we removed their VA’s off the pedigrees too, there would be an absolute outcry!

I wonder which sector is actually in the wrong, the working side for keeping the original appearance of the GSD or the confirmation side for creating a new dog?

Maybe we could start a "new breed". The WORKING GSD. Have a lot of criteria and have ED be judge of the dogs for the first 5 to 10 years. What do you think? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My criteria would be NO SLOPING BACKS!!!

Sounds good to me Carolyn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> or just let working breeders do their thing cos i think their doing a goods job already.

Katie, I am not so much talking about fear biters as I am talking about dogs that don't warn before they attack. The problem is that these dogs have tempermants that you can not properly judge until it is to late. They will pass as dogs with good temperaments until some critical juncture, then they will go from total sweetness to attack with no warning and all without any previous history of doing so.
In the case of the fear biter, show breeders may breed fear biters but worse than that they will select for fear biters that "warn" you of their fear by being extra sweet and friendly.


This is the way I often explain it. If show breeders where breeding rattle snakes, the first thing they would do is breed the rattle out, thinking that doing so would somehow address aggression. Next they would say -people still think these snakes are dangerous we need to breed them so they have "come hug me, I'm sweet" signs in place of the rattle. Of course during that processes, the snakes that would instantly attack the judges, when being handled, would also be selected against.
The end result is you have a animal that is dangerous because it can't warn you that it is dangerous in a way you can understand. In fact, it may "warn" you in a way that actually makes you think the opposite. In such a case when the "show line" rattlesnake attacked someone, the breeders would say thing like "he was always so sweet", "he was just a big kind Doofus", "these were good snakes, they did not act like those poorly bred run of the mill neighborhood rattlesnakes, they never hissed, curled up, or ever rattled at anyone"; "we just don't know why he attacked, he came from well respected breeders and his owners took him to all the right training" etc etc etc.

If you wish to read a sad, real life case that I believe exemplifies exactly what I am talking about read the two links below.

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/3121104.htm

and

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/3181537.htm

Thanks thomas

I read those articles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and I see where you are coming from.
Selecting dogs that have been temperament tested for sound nerves would be the way to rid this perhaps???? So these are dogs that have weak nerves, but how many other dogs are like this???? I'd like to hear more opinions on those articles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think having at least even rudimentary Schutzhund trials helps select against those kinds of animals.

So how many dogs are like this? Who knows? How many dogs were bred out of that line before that trait finally showed itself? And then there are all the minor cases that don't end like that but do result in the dog going to the pound.