I think your right-cash and carry, no questions!

I believe it is a matter of proximity, as to why certain studs get used so often. I was talking to Bernhard last time he was in the states about this. He was saying you would have to drive about 200 km and drive by about 10 top dogs to get to his Itor. I don't know for sure, but where was Yoschy located? I would bet it had something to do with the number of breedings.

have you found that there are dogs that produce great police service dogs that aren't that good for schutzhund, or is it a given that a great police service dog will make a great schutzhund dog? i'll post this question in the police section if that's more appropriate....

this is a great question. One that is hard to answer. Since the sport has pushed hard to judge certain criteria and hasn't worried about others the same can be said for police work. Fullness of grip, while appreciated in police work isn't a big criteria. While environmnetal problems are. Schutzhund can have dogs that won't work off a grass field but have great big grips.
Look at the Belgian Ring Dogs influence on the IPO/SchH world among Mals. Big grips are critical in BR and now that they are judged more heavily in SchH than say, 10 years ago the BR dog breeding has done great in SchH/IPO.
Certainly that cream of the crop, top end police, schh, ring dog can and will produce nice dogs there MAY be a lean towards a certain positive trait/s or the slipping through of a negative trait/s if the dogs aren't also evaluated off the sport field and on the sport field.

novice poster... Beware!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have a Yoschy daugter. She has more defense than prey. Actually she has not much interest in the ball, kong, etc. unless trying to get it away from another dog. She has fairly low stress level. She is very SOFT!!! She is extremly social, kids can roll all over her, pull her ears, whatever. HIGH ENERGY which is sometimes a pain, especially since she doesn't like to play fetch!!!!! Even though she doesn't do SchH anymore, she had Great Grips.
She is now my lap dog/house pet, goes to work with me every day.

What I want to know is what % would Kevin estimate of Fero's progeny are bad? Are there good ones?

What about Troll VDBN? Troll's mother brought a lot to that breeding.

I have seen bad Troll sons, who were mostly line bred back to Fero, but I have seen a handful that I would love to own from all different kids of lines.

I have been looking back at some of the dogs that I have looked at for police work, and even purchased that were Fero linebred. Again a bunch of them had environmental problems. Interestingly enough though many had full grips even if they were thouroughly unconvincing grips.
I currently have a really nice dog line bred on Troll von der Bosen Nachbarschaft. An 11 month old dog that is really really good. I put him on open staiwells, dark enclosed areas, etc. in the last month since I got him. Fero line breeding or not he is exceptional in this area. His grips are quite good, easy V in fact. Not really hard but above average for a 11 month old dog.
Just goes to show you that you need to look at the individual dog. What it would mean for breeding is up in the air I guess. I would be a little concerned just knowing the number of problem dogs I have encountrered through Fero linebreeding. Maybe Troll offers some nice things in breeding? Most of the dogs I have looked at did bring fero through Troll.

i have a troll grandson,serious dog, crazy drive, crushing bite. i was getting ready to certifiy as a patrol dog, but i decided to retire, so now i call him my personel protection dog. you can see him at http://www.njk9.com and click on stud dogs. amigo was from belschik von eiken-bruche and gini vom brinkeweg, belschick was from troll and ina vom scherwald. i sent ed some video of him doing muzzle work with the bite suit, i later did muzzle work with a female decoy siting in chair,strange surroundings, slippery floors, and no agitation. trust me...he would hurt someone real bad.

Gerard, we have a littermate to your dog in our club, Askia vH WeKo. Tough little bitch.

To continue the Troll / Fero issue, perhaps inappropriately given the thread title, why has Timmy VDBN gone altogether unappreciated and why is Timmy such a bad ass with rediculously fewer than brother Troll? I heard rumor hat Timmy was a bit on the crazy side. How many people would be in line for a dog with Timmy on top and Gento on the bottom (within G2 or 3)?

Since you're already discussing these dogs, I'll jump in with a question!

I'm looking at a young bitch with both Timmy & Troll in gen 5 on the top & Mink in Gen 5 plus Yoschi in gen 3 on the bottom (bottom side also brings in Hungarian dogs). She is a friendly bitch and seems VERY high energy. Have not seen her work (yet).

To be quite honest, I'm more familiar with West German (show) lines, and wonder what I'd be letting myself in for. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

All feedback welcome!

what do you think I'd be letting