I have two mastiffs which I train with a prong. Our boy is a two year old Dogue de Bordeaux and we have a 1 year old Neapolitan Mastiff girl. Until I trained the Dogue with a prong, I thought he was stupid, didn't know what I was asking him to do our just very stubborn. He is stubborn, but I soon discovered that he just needed the right kind of motivation, which the prong gave. I had initially trained him using a choke chain when he was a puppy, but his neck became so thick so quickly that I could have checked him all day long and he still didn't mind me. Our girl respomded really well. I don't think Neos are as smart as Dogues, but she got what I was asking her to do really quickly and very rarely needs correction. She has a thick dewlap and the prong can be adjusted easily to fit her neck, I just pull the dewlap down so it is underneath the collar, she still feels the correction. I hope this helps.

John

I have also been having a similiar issue with my training club. I've previously posted what happended when I actually entered the building with my Dobie on a prong... Anyway...
I, too , have been trying to train my pup with the least amount of force/correction.... However, I've quickly become aware of the fact that he is simply a 'hard' dog. We have progressed through everything (and anything) the trainers could offer, including halti's, gentle leaders, flat collars, volhard's and choke/slip collars. I use a prong at home and have repeatedly requested that I be allowed to use it in class, until recently I was not allowed to. "We don't promote the use of such torturous methods at this club" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Well, I now have a trainer that understands a hard dog that NEEDS to be controlled (she has a giant shnauzer) and she is allowing me to use a prong in class.
Last night was our first class WITH the prong and it went beautifully!! My dog paid attention to me for the first time in there, because he is familiar with the prong and respects it. Only once did he attempt to lunge at another dog (to play of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and he got (IMO) a level 9 correction (he yelped) but, did not attempt it again. So, I think the heavy correction was worth the yelp it drew to show him in no uncertain terms DO NOT DO THAT AGAIN! Other training sessions were pure hell because they insisted he be on a choke (against their policy as well, but, they said to use it because "he can be such a knob in class")
I've even had one trainer tell me all my problems with him heeling (or not as the case may be) are due to the fact that he's intact and I should 'snip him' immediatly as that would solve the problem, it would apparently (in her opinion) keep him from becoming aggressive as well... I pointed out the CKC/AKC breed standard that states the breed is supposed to be (and allowed to be in the ring) somewhat dog aggressive. She stuck to her opinion anyway. I stick to mine.... I am keeping him intact for the time being, If he is of the proper caliber to obtain titles then I will want to breed him in future. If he is not, then he shouldn't be bred to anything and will be 'snipped' at that time.
Just thought you'd like to know other folks are dealing with this issue too. Stick with what you KNOW is working for you and your dog. Good Luck

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Well, I now have a trainer that understands a hard dog that NEEDS to be controlled (she has a giant shnauzer) and she is allowing me to use a prong in class.

I am a prong-collar convert, but for a slightly different reason. My dog didn't need to be controlled so much as properly guided. Our obedience was pretty flat for months (I had been using a martingale of all things, keep the smirks to yourselves <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> until I 'broke down' and tried a prong. The difference was like night and day. I discovered that I had basically been nagging my dog to death with the constant tugs and jerks on her old collar. The correction with a prong is very quick and I need a WHOLE lot less pressure behind it so we are both enjoying ourselves more. Like watching completely different dog- one that is saying to herself "YES! My dimwitted owner finally understands!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I now use prongs on my 1 and 2 year old Shepherds, the final straw was when the older (definetly a 'hard' dog) snapped his Halti duing his weekly obedience class.
I anounced that I was going to get him a prong, most in the class had never heard of them ( I live in Scotland), those who had heard of them were horrified that I would consider being so cruel to 'The Gangster'...........his club nickname, says it all.

Got my prongs during the Xmas holiday. When we returned to class the difference was incredible, two others in the class now use prongs, several more look like they will follow. I try to educate people every chance I get.I'm happy to take the time to tell people and demonstrate how humane a prong collar is, most will listen if you take the time to show them

My dogs are happier and totally under control now, I am happy to be known as the guy with the two well behaved Shepherds.

Thanks to all the regular posters on the Boards, you advice has been invaluable.

John Thomson

When I'm arguing on behalf of prong collars, I always use http://www.dru.org/prongcollar.htm and http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm in my arguement. The first link takes you to a very well written article (on a doberman rescue site) on prong collars, and the second is Ed's page on how to fit one properly. Just wanted to pass along that first link, mainly, for those that may need to use it.

I posted my original question 14 months ago. I see that this thread has been somewhat active in the past few weeks, so I thought some of you might like to hear what's happened in since then.

I decided to leave obedience classes behind, for one thing. What we were getting out of them wasn't worth what it was costing in terms of my relationship with the dogs, their appearance, and my continuing concern with potential internal damage from the choke collar.

My earlier problems are now either completely resolved or well under control. There is no more lunging (and when you are holding on to a couple hundred pounds of dog with one hand that is no small matter). There is no question who leads the pack, either.

We had an issue about a year ago because the male (then 18 months) was a little confused about what species provided potential mates -- he kept pushing at and nipping teenage girls who came to visit my three daughters. When we finally figured out what was happening was TM courtship behavior, the combination of a prong collar and a leash tab worn all day in the house gave us the tools to put an end to that very quickly.

Tibetan mastiffs as a breed tend to be notoriously slow to comply -- I have this on good authority from people with long experience with the breed -- so I will probably never see the really impressive snapping into position that some are able to get from their dogs, but my TM's do comply -- with great dignity and decorum, of course.

My greatest satisfaction is that when we meet neighborhood (or complete stranger) dogs on our walks, I can put my TMs in a sit-stay or down-stay while the other dogs go by at fairly close range (5-10 feet). People have asked my "How did you do that?" So I've gone from being the guy with the uncontrollable dogs to the guy with the most remarkably well-behaved dogs on my block.

I don't guess that I will ever convince the trainers I was talking about in the first part of the thread, but in the end, I got the results I wanted, and I don't think I would have gotten them without the use of prong collars. My situation certainly is not as dramatic as some I have read about here, but with the prong collar, I was able to get two big, strong, stubborn dogs to see things my way. These collars are incredibly effective communication devices. As I noted in another thread, my dogs have nothing but positive associations with them -- they come to me to have the collars put on when it is time to go out.

Bryan Veis