And I still think that even if I never breed the dog, even if I had the dog spayed (no possibility of pups there) I would still want my full registration once the dog had her hips cleared and was titled because to me the limited registration just seems to say at the very least 'we don't know yet if this dog is good enough that there should be more like it' and once my dog has proven herself I want it switched, meaning (in my mind anyway) this is a great dog, the breeder is proud of the way it turned out and more dogs like this would be a good thing (even if there weren't going to be any puppies) basically, a stamp of approval saying 'hey this is a great dog.' Maybe it really doesn't makes sense to anybody, and in practical terms probably doesn't matter.

Here's the thing Jennie, if the dog is already spayed/neutered, there is no reason to lift the limited registration. Basically it would be a waste of money and time. Unlimited registration doesn't mean jack unless you're planning on breeding...it's no stamp of approval, it's no sign of quality, it's just a green light to register progeny from the dog. I would think you would be more proud of the titles and hip/elbow certs as proof that you had a nice dog (however, I've seen dogs with both that I wouldn't feed much less breed to) and not need some piece of chickenscratch from the AKC.

Jennie, I understand what you are saying. I look at it this way, either the dog is mine or it is not. If there are strings attached then its not really my dog, I might as well just be leasing the dog.

Not true, Thomas. The dog is registered in your name and is your dog with a limited registration, the only "catch" is that any offspring from that dog would not be able to be registered with AKC (and therefore not with any FCI recognized body). The only people that are overly concerned (with a few exceptions, but on the whole from what I've seen) with wanting an unlimited registration on the pups are the ones that want to breed them young or have some complex where they feel that someone is holding something over them. For those people, I say look to someone else to get a dog from, mine come with limited registration or not at all (unless you're a close friend that I trust).

Another way of looking at limited is that is can mirror the "pink papers" situation in Germany - a quality control thing. Dogs must meet specific criteria in order for their offspring to be registered in Germany. Otherwise they do not get "full" registration if bred. Pink papers is "full" - breeding approved by the registry. Since AKC has no quality control criteria, breeders can chose to follow a system of quality control by limiting the breeding rights of a puppy until some pre-aggreed upon criteria has been fulfilled by the dog/owner. Most American based breeders who want to see controls just use the hip clearance and title prior to release to full....

lee

Mike, I understand what you are saying. If I wanted to negatively characterize what you are doing I would say you only sell to your friends and to every one else you just lease dogs. But I look it at a much broader scale, if you have plenty of customers, then good for you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If a customer wants one of your dogs but won't buy it because of the stipulations, then good for them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That is the way a free market works and that is a good thing. If some one forced you to sell dogs in a way you were not comefortable with, that would be bad. In the same way if someone force customers to buy in a way they did not want to, then that would be bad too.

If I were to buy a dog from you, I would "feel" best about your operation if you felt that you were placing your pup with a friend. And I would hope that you would respect your friend's judgement to do what is best for his new dog, even if it went against what you belived was correct. As your friend, that is what I would tell you if you were to sell me a dog. If you could not agree to that I, as your friend, would not buy from you.

In the end, you either trust the person to treat your pup right, or you do not, If you don't then don't let them have the pup. If one approaches all sales in that way, it helps make sure that you have the dog's bests interests at heart.

Exactly, Mike. Good points. As a breeder who also registers puppies only on limited, I have found the same in puppy buyers - those who really plan on working and titling the dog, don't care at all about the limited registration because they know that I will change it to full when they get their Sch1 and OFA rating. The same people are serious about breeding their dog, wouldn't do it anyway if the dog isn't titled or doesn't pass their OFA. Those that don't plan on working the dog or breeding the dog, also don't care about limited registration. If they do care, I am still happy to change it to full when the dog is neutered - though at that point it doesnt' really matter (full vs limited). Those that do care about the limited registration (I've learned) do have plans to breed the dog regardless of title and/or adult hip rating. They can say they don't, "they just don't want limited registration", they promise they won't breed until the title is achieved, but I have learned that what really happens is they don't title the dog, and they do plan on breeding the dog regardless of title. So these people don't get a pup from me - it's limited or no pup. (Unless as Mike says it is a good friend who I trust)

And I'm sure Lee knows this already - but it's not just pink papered dogs who are "approved", it is any titled, conformation rated dog who is approved for breeding in Germany. The requirements are minimum Schh1 and "G" conformation rating. Puppies from either or both parents with these minimum requirements would receive green papers. Puppies from both parents who have (minimum) Schh1, "G" conformation, and breed survey, receive pink papers. But for breeding in Germany, it is only the title and conformation rating that is required, not a certain registration level.

This is really spiraling away from the original topic guys. It is not about the breeder in question anymore, but has turned into a bit of cheerleading.

If someone wants to open a thread about restricted registrations, go for it, but try to stick to topics.

Sorry...