Cynthia,
When you can engage in intelligent and respectful discourse rather than putting words in my mouth and talking down to me, I'd be happy to continue this conversation. Until then, I really have nothing more to say.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Cynthia Beattie:

We don't know much about this dog, but what we DO know (barking and raised hackles) could be the result of more than just 'fear'. Excitement, for one...who knows what he's really thinking? Never seen a dog show hair 'cause it was excited, they do that when they feel a little insecure (read scared).

Simon,
I agree. Piloerection is not under voluntary control; it is caused by stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system. Perhaps a more general term than "fear" would be "stress". Stress can be caused by frustration, immobilization/confinement, exposure to other aggressive animals, etc. Some other signs of sympathetic activation would be dilated pupils, increased heart rate, increased secretions from the glands on the feet ("sweaty paws"). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regardless of whether this dog is "afraid" or is simply frustrated that he can't get to the other dogs, his sympathetic nervous system is active, making his ability to learn pretty much nonexistent. Although increased mental functions are also a part of SNS activation, I believe that it has to do with voluntary motor control, such as running and biting (more mental activity=faster running/biting, snap decisions as in bite first, ask questions later), and nothing to do with being actually receptive to learning alternate behaviors.

I think where a lot of people run into problems is not understanding how many successful repetitions of the desireable response the dog needs to have in order for it to become second nature. We're talking about a LOT of training that most people don't have the patience for. They want a quicker fix.

Cynthia, IMHO I think that you have greatly underestemated Lisa she is one of the most knowledgable people on this board And has proven herself time and time again. Even though I am one of the kind of people without the kind of patience for her style of training she is correct the dogs behavior shows stress. I agree that a dog will follow it's pack leader But some people love there leaders more. And some fear there leaders more the Question then becomes which do You want to be.

Thanks for the kind words, Chris. Just want to add that I agree that a dog will follow its leader; but part of being a good leader who has earned their dog's trust is making decisions that enable the dog to succeed, and not forcing a dog beyond their ability to cope. I'd prefer to build my dog's confidence in herself and in me by proving myself a worthy leader rather than repeatedly putting her in situations that I know she can't handle and then punishing her for her failure (the failure that I set her up for). I want my dog to be confident that if she follows my direction, nothing bad will happen to her. How can I build that confidence if I continually put her in situations that she can't deal with?
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once the foundation is laid there is no reason that fair corrections can't be added. But I don't believe you're doing the dog any favors to simply suppress the behavior you don't like without giving the dog an opportunity to be successful at a different one.

Some people don't care about earning their dog's trust and building their dog's confidence. They just want the dog, when they say "JUMP!", to ask "How high?". The thing is, when your dog trusts you and has self-confidence, they do that. And they can do that under a great deal of stress once they have learned how.

Ok Lisa and Simon, I have a link for you:
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/Pr05000/pr00378.htm
Check out the 2 different situations for piloerection, a.k.a. thermoregulation
(what we humans know as goose bumps)
Sorry Lisa if I was too antagonistic, just my horrible personality showing, lol. I don't doubt that your method would work, it's just one that I didn't use. My dog had issues, and we solved the problem differently, that's all. Maybe my personality dictated a different technique.
Perhaps that is the crux of training itself-you can only do what you can do.
In any case, it's the dog that matters.

Cynthia,
Apology accepted.

Just one little smartypants comment; piloerection and thermoregulation are two distinct functions. "Piloerection" refers to the hairs being pulled into an upright position by the involuntary contraction of the piloerector muscles. "Thermoregulation" is the regulation of body temperature. I highly doubt that dogs bark and lunge at other dogs because they are cold, LOL.

As for the table you linked, it doesn't disprove a thing I've said. A confident dog does not walk around all the time with his or her hackles (restricted to neck or tail region <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) up. The hackles are raised *in response* to a *stimulus*. Even if the dog in this case is confident, his or her sympathetic nervous system is active, since the SNS controls piloerection. Since the piloerector muscles are adrenergic, that means that adrenaline is active in the body at that time.

I will admit that there is probably much more involved in the physiology of aggressive behavior in dogs, and I certainly am no expert on canine physiology; however, what I have seen and experienced is that dogs learn better when they are relaxed and not stressed. When the dog is stressed, it will fall back on what it has already learned.

I'm glad you were able to solve your dog's issues. Personally, I think that if your dog will respond to a prong collar correction when it's aroused, then it's not very aroused. My own personal experience with dog aggression is of a very intense variety, probably genetically based, where the reaction to another dog is so strong that nothing short of life threatening injury will stop the aggressive response. In that instance, prong collar corrections are no more significant to the dog than a mosquito buzzing in their ear. The only way I was able to address the issue was to work with the dog *before* she reached critical mass. If I let her get to boiling point, it was too late and I chalked it up to my own mistake. The nice thing about having had this experience (I have to find something nice about it, as dog aggression is one of the hugest pains in the asses and I will NEVER knowingly take another dog aggressive dog under my roof as long as I live) was that when my young female started showing aggressive behavior toward other dogs, I was able to address it immediately instead of fooling around with different techniques. Now, she is the star of her obedience class, a class that is chock full of out of control, untrained dogs and their equally clueless owners. She is attending to me nearly the entire hour, only on her buckle collar. At one time, this would have been too much for her to handle, but now, I'm using the class as a distraction (she's much more advanced in her obedience than this class, but the out of control dogs and incompetent owners provide us with an opportunity to work on "real world" scenarios, where the average pet dog owner really has no control over their dog).

Just one last comment, I find it ironic that you're linking an article written by Dr. Karen Overall to prove your point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Are you not familiar with the good doctor's work? I find her protocol for relaxation to be extremely useful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I personaly love a smartypants answer, so thank you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It makes for such a fun and lively debate, much more interesting, IMO, lol.

Thank you too for posting your personal experience
with this problem. I'm always open to learning something from someone else. You're most likely right about the degree of my dog's intolerable behavior around other dogs. I suppose it was easy to desensitize him because they were quick encounters (urban setting, on a sidewalk, etc)
and were all pet dogs. But still, I had to deal with it asap...and the upswing to him knowing that I wasn't messing around- he didn't bite back when in an altercation. Mind you, I kinda enjoy threatening off those dogs, lol, so my dog didn't get a chance to. It's not as bad as it sounds...
I'm not a credible source, just a pet owner, so
I could just be the luckiest idiot, too, lol.