The training problem is as follows...

Male GSD, 20 months, very good german SHOWlines, very mediocre temperament, very pretty dog...happy and social. The owner wants the dog surveyed well, as she spent quite a bit of money on it, and wants the dog to pass the short and the long bite at the specialty shows. The dog bites up close, no anxiety, but perfunctory. On the long bite the dog starts going out then suffers what I view as separation anxiety, and goes back to the owner...again, no apparent bite related stress.

Having already gone back to tugs, long lines, owner handled, other person handled, gradual increase of distance, helper held lead, environmental stuff, and prey drive development, etc. the problem only shows up when the dog's owner shows up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The dog would just pass a specialty show bite, but with the owner not participating, letting the dog bond with someone else. But that is not going to happen.

The dog sleeps, eats and goes everywhere with the owner. That is not going to change.

How does this umbillical chord get broken??? Specifically, I'm looking for method, and behavior targets.

I'd be very interested in reading opinions on this.

Anticipated thanks...

More money?
No, seeeriously i've seen it done around here...

Actually...I AM looking for serious answers.

I don't train for money anyway...I use the barter system <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />...

Nah! Seeeeriously, I don't like spending time with useless projects...

...but this board's resources are quite ample. Maybe someone can suggest something different...new...

Again, anticipated thanks.

If the handler wants to get this dog to pass, he needs to make some sacrifices. If the dog is impacted by the handler during this work, in training he needs to be as much out of the picture as possible. I would make sure the handler does not use any voice praise or verbal praise during training. Get the dogs working at the end of a long line for bits (20ft). Allow the dog to bit and slip the arm for a long time. No tugging, driving or stress added, then let the dog have a long run around the filed, not a small circle run. Again, no voice praise or any reaction from the handler. The handler has to stay out of the picture. Do not work the out, wait a long time. I would work a lot in frustration, if he has prey drive, tie him to a poll, and give him a lot of misses. Don't give him a bit. I would frustrate him as much as possible for a few training sessions, then bring him out for some bits. I would also work on an escape bit but as soon as the dog bits, drop the sleeve. They way I see it; he needs to know 100% that the sleeve is his fulfillment, and he needs to really want it. Hopefully after 2-4 months of this stuff the try a small backing up long bit, keep the distance small. If that works, keep building on the distance, making sure the helper stops running towards the dog, and runs back words right at the end. When the dog bits, slip it, no driving. After many good training sessions, begin small drives, just a few steps let him win, if he can run with the sleeve, let him do it off the leash, no handler involvement.
If the owner is treating him like a fluff ball at home that is going to make the problem worse. Go over some living rules with him, again if he wants to pass with this dog he is going to need to change some living habits. I would not do any obedience with this dog for a while. If he started obedience with the bit work, that is probably one of the problems. Get the bit work in solid, then do obedience.

I hope that helps. Chet

"SHOWlines, very mediocre temperment". Sorry, but I don't think it should be done. It's a perfect example of why titles on showlind dogs don't mean squat. JMO!

Hi Bob, I would agree in general terms that most "protection sport" competition dogs' titles don't mean a thing on the street...

Having said that, and in plain view of the fact that there is nothing that's going to change the status quo, many GSD, Malinois, Dutchies, and so on are used for SAR, agility, Truffle finding contests...even herding.

These are also jobs for "working dogs".

The dog I refer to does very decent obedience, is environmentally sound, and in my view there's nothing wrong with that. When I refer to temperament, I'm meaning the balance of the dog's qualities as an expression of his context.

On the other hand, I REALLY don't like importers & suppliers of lousy dogs that sell them as "PSD", "PPD", etc., or breeders that advertise working lines and then don't properly imprint the pups, or "professionals" that prey on the egos of the unknowing.

Every breed has its "showlines". To restrict breeding, owning, using...based on a small group of people's criteria is tantamount to saying which parents should have kids and which should not...and what kids should do. Much as this would oftentimes be desirable, it goes against democracy.

I fought long and hard for democracy...and a bunch of my friends did too. It's a very good system.

Chet...first off, thanks...regarding the training...already tried the extended frustration, and the progressive distance increments, as well as slipping the sleeve right quick.

Are there any other motivators which may be greater than this dog's "pack&separation problem"? Any way to trick the dog into long bites? The owner is not going to change...and I can't really critisize her in general terms...she's a fine mother, wife and member of the community...that's infatuated with her dog! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I fully acknowledge this is not my ideal specimen of the breed...but I don't own the truth...and any suggestions are appreciated.

How about drag ins? the handler lets the dog drag her to the bite? At a lower level the tug on a line, back and forth the handler feeds the line out a bit and the the tug is given, ect till there is good distance.

Hello Andres,

A couple of questions:

1. The owner is insisting on being the handler for the competitions? If she is OK with it, you might be able to have a stand-in handler during training where she is at first out of site, then later the owner is a long ways away, and then later closer.. sort of like a de-sensititation effort. Eventually, you might be able to get the dog to lower her focus on the handler.

2. Have you done any defensive work with this dog? I'm just wondering how much of this is lack of maturity (and the corresponding confidence) for this dog. Maybe you could do some defensive agitation (away from the bitework and with the owner out of site) - much like what Ed has in his "first steps of defense" tape. This might build up the dog's confidence for being on its own and as long as you kept it separate from the bitework wouldn't mess with the prey foundation. (what I'm suggesting is more the tie out, see the stranger, get a bark, stranger runs away). If that builds the dog up but doesn't help the bitework, you might be able to think of a good way to integrate it - with the goal being to teach the dog that it can overcome the stress of being away from the owner and deal things on their own.

I may be off-base on the second one, but it might be a way of helping the dog to overcome the stress of being by itself and build it up a bit.

Good luck,

Alan...

And another note on the owner. It may not be the perfect Schutzhund/working dog (my dog certainly isn't), but it's great that she is titling the dog and involved in the training so she can see the limitations along with the good parts of her dog. The experience may make her a workingline advocate in the future <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> or at least demand more of her showlines.

--Alan