Quote:

Jason wrote: "in the past you could look at a dogs lines and see if the pup was going to be a good working dog or not by looking at past titles."


This has never really been the case. It's always been necessary to look at the actual dogs involved in order to find the traits you really want.

If you want a serious dog, you need to look for serious dogs. . . .not titles or popular pedigrees.

I'm guessing there is truth and exceptions to both statements. There are most certainly fantastic dogs without titles, and undeserving ones that have them.

From what I understand, SVV/ZVV is more realistic and demanding on all levels as compared to the thousands of dog's that acquire a SchH3. Only 3 to 5 dog's yearly attain the ZVV3 title. Showline dogs are usually not suitable for serious work and are bred for Schutzhund sport. They tend to exhibit a very high prey drive with almost no defense drives. In realistic protection training the dog should have more balanced prey and defense drives.

Bob, I agree.

When I was in Germany this summer I saw a lot of dogs, none of the dogs that I REALLY liked were dogs that were great competition dogs. Only a few, and those few were trained and handled by the best trainers in the world. I don't think there are more than a handful of people that can take a really serious and HARD dog to the BSP. . . and score well.

DARYL,
you say that this really isn't the case, looking at lines and titles, but think of this, the PS bloodline is considered by many to be a great line and well breed dogs. you look at a dog that may have no title, no top line names but works his butt off and you may get $2000-$3000 a pup. you take a PS line alone and you could get $5000. granit im not in it for the name i just want a dog that won't pee himself the first somebody jumps out from behind a wall and yells. however these people that are selling ps dogs are getting it cause of the name and titles. i think we are agreeing with each other saying that anymore there is no real way to tell if the pups will be real workers or just sport dogs. that is my entire point of asking my first question. is schh going soft? if it were still like it was first meant to be then we could look at a schhIII dog and know ok this dog has a good chance of throwing some outstanding working dogs. i honestly feel that the sport of schh has let the entire working dog population down by just giving titles away instead of looking at the true working ability and possible drives of the dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Daryl,
I'm sorry i was reading roberts reply and put your name. sorry. thanks for the tip. zvv may be a better test of the dog. i will have to look into it.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


ROBERT,
please read my last post it was meant for you but i put daryls name by mistake.

I agree with Robert. The golden rule which I liked in my country was: you dont have to have a pup from any breeding line, You could come with a GSD pure bred without papers and attend trials. And for some it might be unbelievable but those dogs were taking the same levels and acomlishing the trials as a GSD with breeding pedigre longer than "Pacific Crest Trail". As matter of fact you could come with wathever mutt you had...the dog just had to work.
I saw Newfundland and also pit's, basically any breed or cross.

VC, and other people in the know, what, IYO, are the reasons some of the tough, serious dogs don't often do as well at high scoring? To independent, lacking pack drive, not enough people that can or want to handle them, or not as prey driven as the more common sport type dogs today?

They don't out. Obedience is a hassle, they are not usually to flashy. Some track real well.

Bob,

One of the people whom I consider to be one of the better Schutzhund trainers/helpers/judges in the world likes to work these kind of dogs (I prefer these dogs too, although I am in no way a world class trainer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ). He never quite seems to finish well at world class events (and sometimes doesn't make it there at all) because the type of dogs he likes are, in his words, assholes.

These are the type of dogs we are talking about (at least I am). They are HARD dogs that might be a little sharp and may also have no problem going civil. They do great in protection, but may have trouble with the out. They are in many cases fantastic tracking dogs. But their obedience can be problematic.

Usually, they are the dogs that have scores like 99-83-99 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />