well, i've read not only ed's "marker training" article, but also his updated "philosophy of training", and his "introducing dogs..." articles.

i've previously said that my rescue dobe is too old to re-train, but now i wonder...his "showmanship" is impeccable, his OB leaves a LOT to be desired. i'm thinking that trying marker training with him may be a good idea; he'll give me some good experience in the method, and he's been (from the way he acts) subject to too much "yank & crank" before he came here.

i think building trust would be the first step here; currently, he lays around the house, gets crazy over coyotes outside (and gets to go get them, BTW. he plumb runs them off--but no supervision; i turn him out and he goes). i know that sounds crazy to you guys, but we don't have a neighbor for 2 miles, and the coyotes are a nuisance. and a menace to our livestock, so he IS serving a function.

my question is, do i go all the way (back) to the crate with this guy, or start with the leash/tab/long line (which is what i'm thinking will work). i have an underground fence, when he carries the battery-collar, he thinks it's a "hot" collar, and acts submissive, whether the collar's hot or not (collar-wise, right?)

now, here's the hard part: he's been with us for 3 yrs., and we've had him, and my girl, go to 4-H OB training classes for 2 yrs. i think the trainer has just too many kids with dogs to work with--she's said that she'd love to work the dog in OB because he has some potential. i've shown my daughter (13)how he works with me (not perfect, but a LOT better than he works for her). she shows him in 4-H, wins showmanship (only because he's so good), but gets placed behind the BC in OB.

i suppose my question is: how do i re-train the dog, AND the girl?? and honestly, the priority in my mind is trying to get the dog to enjoy OB instead of being afraid of it.

is this possible??? help? he's a smart dog--like yours jeff--i think this could be a good experience for me.

IME, it is harder to train the people than the dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> When a dog is switched to motivational training the dog is like - "O cool, now I get paid" and I haven't seen one respond poorly.

Start with short, short sessions, simple commands with a lot of motivation and marker or clicker training. Work on accuracy and appearance on old commands. Video tape training sessions to really identify what is a problem and be creative to solve it.

Remind the person (you or the girl) to SMILE, be encouraging, fair and consistent. Don't expect miracles.

Maybe not altogether "back to the crate" - but crate games, restrained recall, drive building - activites in which you really interact wth the dog in play. Limit all interaction that does not involve training and make those little training moments very special and fun.

Just a comment.

I like to start dogs out without a collar or a leash in a controlled environment, no distractions, and a bag of hotdogs/cheese/anything nice to eat in hand. I use the clicker to 'teach the dog how to learn', if that makes any sense, since they usually respond to it really fast. Normally I just do sits or 'touch the stick' type of situations, to show the dog he has control of the reward and to get him to work willingly. Afterwards I double the click with a marker command--I use "Good boy!", and then use that in every day life (ideally I'd use a clicker since it's faster but it's just not convenient). Don't do this thinking you're doing obedience or try to do it formally. I just spread these 'sessions' throughout the whole day and try to integrate it with the dog's schedule/play so eventually he starts to think it's fun. Pretty soon he starts to look at it as a game, like, "Hey, let's heel first and then you chase the ball!" instead of "Heel and then you get to chase the ball." If that makes sense.

I usually imprint on food first so the dog understands, then make it fun with a toy. At first the dog may seem confuse but eventually he learns these are the 'rules' of the game and start to enjoy anything from heelwork to instant drops.

ok, i'm really not sure how to go about this. the boy knows "sit", "down", and "stay" though his "stay" is very unreliable. he "heels" on leash as if he's gonna get a beating any second--lagging in order to watch the handler; he "sits" reluctantly and out of position, and i haven't been able to figure out the command for "by heel" following a "come" that he's familiar with...

it's frustrating because he KNOWS this stuff, but he's certainly NOT happy about doing it. so i'm not sure just how to go about marker training when he knows the language, but hates the work.

at this stage, do i mark the behavior with no command? that's the basic question now (i think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My Max was a bit like that. Your Dobi sound like he's already earning his chow. We can't tell anything w/o looking at your dog but I'd try to relax and do alot more play and drive stuff as suggested for a while. If it were me and I was looking to do Competitions I'd get a pup or a green dog and just work on Dobie's recall and whatever else to make him pleasant.

that's the original question actually. both my dogs are "older", and i'm looking into buying a pup for mostly ppd. meanwhile, with my dobe, i thought i'd try remedial marker training to not only start getting the feel for that type of training, but also to sharpen him up on OB for my daughter's 4-H competition.

i think my girl and i both need more training than the dog, so i'm trying to find a way to get him a "BIT" more enthusiastic about even Novice Ob.

..suggestions...?...advice?...i need some specifics if y'all can....

how about using the marker training but starting with a new word/command/trick? You'll be starting out with something new and positive, then you can bring back in the old commands. Just a thought. A gal used to come to agility classes with her dobe, just a beautiful, sweet dog, but the dog looked so miserably sad. It was trained with a prong in obedience and agility before coming to our classes. I'm not against the prong, I use it on my dogs, but I think hers was trained the jerk way and I think she was a very soft dog. It wouldn't do the course faster than a walk and just looked like a beaten dog. Our trainer wouldn't allow prongs or chokers and was retraining her to train her dog positively. When she had first started coming to class she was very stern with the dog, there was no happy sounding "good dog", but she was changing her ways slowly and sounding happy and encouraging to the dog and by the end you could see a difference. The dog wasn't bouncing around happy by any means, but it was up to a trot anyways. She didn't come back to the fall class, I'm sure there would have been further improvement. I guess I'm saying I think it can be done positively with the marker training, but don't expect miracles overnight. But I would start with something new or easy like touching the hand or stick.