Would like some feedback on this topic. How much of it should be tolorated, if at all? How do you recognize it in a young dog? When is it likely to surface & how do you deal with?
Thanks
Luis

Luis use the search function under the "Post A Reply" Quote, above right hand corner of screen.

Handler aggression may start as early as 9-12 months, if handle well this may not be a problem, but it usually takes a pretty good handler to bring this dog around. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Usually you don't see signs of this until you start having the dog do things that he does not want to do, like downs, release of a toy/bite, leave food alone or a unfair correction. As mentioned Usually a season trainer is needed to work the dog, so less training errors are made that could lead to the handler getting bite.

I have not dealt with it but have heard of occurences when people acquire a young adult dog and try to give firm corrections before real bonding has occured.

Not the voice of experience but mouth repeating what ears have heard.

When my pup was 9 weeks old she'd try to go after me when I went to take her toy away. Her dam was very handler aggressive (and so was her dam...and probably so on!) so I had an idea of what I might have on my hands. I think when she did it the first few times it was more her thinking that I was a littermate, trying to take her toy away, not her leader. I ignored it at that point, it only happened twice, and then it was fine. I have always made sure to follow the "dominant dog" precautions...not allowing her up on the couch, getting her to work for things.

I decided to do the "out" using the method in Berhard's videos, sort of grabbing the skin on the dog's side. Well the first time I tried this she tried to take my hand off. She was only 5 months old.

She's now almost 9 months old and is just a wonderful dog. She knows her place - although I know if I get to slackin' she'd try to take over in a heartbeat. She is still quite young so she might get more dominant as she reaches adolescence but I think we can keep it in control. I love her personality, it's a bit of a challenge but it's worth it.

I agree that many HA dogs are those who change handlers...however, it may be part of the reason they are up for sale! In either case, it is generally a dog who is dominant and trying to get the upper hand. If the handler does not nip it in the bud, it can only increase as the dog gains confidence. I watched a young strong dog test a very soft, novice handler a few times and quickly realize he had the upper hand, and unfortunately, he very rapidly progressed to where the dog had the upper hand and had to find a new home.

There is a difference in a handler aggressive dog and a dog who will nip the handler in drive. My own female is in no way handler aggressive, but will mouth me occassionally in frustration and drive...it happened a few times when outing the sleeve - I stopped and corrected her, and this stopped. She still has one very annoying habit, and that is that she will leap up and grab my arm when I release her to do a blind search. She just grips, and then barks as she lands running towards the blind. I don't consider this "handler aggression" just a cocky attitude <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think handler aggession is something that is misunderstood by a lot of people. I have seen dogs that will bite or growl at their handlers during training when the correction is unfair. I don't consider this handler aggression. (my opinion though!)

Then there are dogs that will bite or growl (not only during training) but also in other scenarios like the kennel, the house, around food, sticks, toys,grooming, etc.. I feel that while this can be considered handler aggression, in many cases it is a respect issue between the dog and handler. A rank issue where the dog doesn't feel that the handler is the pack leader. You don't want to fall down in a kennel with a dog like this! When the dog is clear with his place with the handler, the dog doesn't feel the need to show aggression to the handler and usually is quite compliant.

Then there are dogs that are flat out dangerous and possibly have a screw loose. I have seen a handful of dogs like this and they have no place in society. AND they most definitely should not be bred as who is to say this may not be genetically linked. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

To answer the original poster, I think when raising a pup some people 'accidentally' create rank issues with dogs as they grow and they can become problem dogs as they mature. They aren't given a clear picture of their place in the pack and decide to take the leader role. Many times these dogs are offered for sale when they hit 2 or so because they begin to challenge the handler as they reach mental maturity...

I think Bernhard Flinks gets dogs this way sometimes! (Itor, for example)

sorry if this rambles, still on my first cup of coffee! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the replies everyone...What I hear the most in your comments is nip it in the bud when the dog is young... good advise...I plan on being very attentive with my next pup coming this summer. No sport work but lots of other stimulating activity like retrieve in water, obstacles, jumps, running with me & most of all, I AM THE BOSS! My family is ready. I can't let my guard down though because there is a 10 y.o. Stafford Bull Terrier named Perry that will make things challenging considering the 8wk old will be a male working breed.I have a lot of confidence despite only raising one dog. The old Koehler book was my reference in training Perry but the internet is a great thing & you guys are part of it...thanks.
Luis

Cindy is correctabout this being a RANK issue she is also correct inher comment that SOME PEOPLE C REATE HANDLER AGGRESSIVE DOGS because of the way they raise and handle their dog.

Read the article I wrote on this web site DEALING WITH THE DOMINANT DOG.

I would only recommend flanking a dog to get it to OUT (what Meghan's comments on in her post) if the handler is working the dog in drive and if its done the handler must instantly put the dog back into drive the instant the prey item hits the ground. If the dog becomes aggressive and goes after the hand then its time to use an electric collar - I will n ot go into the protocol on this here

The OUT or DOWN or taking TOYS away are some of the most common areas to see a problem. The place to start fixing the problem is in the everyday life that I explain in the article I wrote. If this does not work there are protocols for using the dominant dog collars I sell - again this is not something I am going to go into here.

Then there are dogs that have brain tumors or serious genetic mental problems - nothing works with these dogs like this. They must be be put down.

I recently heard of a dog that had been imported into this country with serious handler aggression problems. A German trainer was brought over who tried to correct the aggression problem with normal methods. Without any provocation the trainer was badly bitten and when the handler tried to take the dog off a groin bite the handler was severely bitten. Needless to say this dog was shot (several times before it died) The sad thing ius that this dog was bred 4 or 5 times in this country and we now hearing about handler aggression problems in his puppies. German Shepherds have a bad enough rap without doing things like this.

Now you see it, now you don't huh?
Wow isn't that fair!!! LOL
I expected that anyway.

Nice topic I thought I had this defined and noted.
But obviously there is degrees of handler aggression some acceptable and in other cases because of a abnormality, the dogs dangerous.

I was under the impression that any growling or attempting to bite the handler, was handler aggression. I know these dogs are workable and desired by some police departments around here, at least. It just takes a season and experience handler to make this dog work properly. Most dogs like this are too much dog for most pet owners or novice trainers.

Meghan, That was kinda cute a 9 week puppy challenging you for her toy, was she serious or did it start with a play bow first? I'ev seen the barking and yipping and even snapping from a young pup, because of a toy being taken, but it started with a play bow first. That was cute.

Thanks Cindy that was acknowlegding that some people that are season desire or don't mind a dog challenging if the correction is unfair. Thats not handler aggression to you and trainers like you, its "my what a nice dog".

I see damn this is a strong willed dog, I need to pay alot of attention or I better watch my a$$.

Luis do that search, Ed has some good stuff on this topic as you can see.

Oh yeah forget the Kohler method, with this dog unless you are season it will get you bit, if this is an Adult dog and you are not seasoned. His method are effective but too handsy for a novice, working a strong handler aggressive dog.