Instead of hijacking the other thread on backyard breeding, I thought I'd start a new one, as this is more for my amusement than anything else

At what point do you consider a breeder to be considered a "breeder" and not a "backyard breeder"?

I have yet to meet a breeder that doesn't breed in their home, and I have met quite a few breeders who have good names but IMO aren't really all that good as a breeder.

So I am curious, when YOU look at a breeder, what factors do you take into consideration when determining if someone is a breeder or not?

Is it the number of litters they have produced? What do you consider them if a breeder is just starting out on his first litter??

Is it the fancy website with "vom Fruitcakehaus" kennel name ala Deutsche?

Is a breeder considered a breeder when he is breeding working lines vs. american lines? Does breeding American lines classify them as a backyard breeder?

Does buying a dog specifically for the intention to breed make the person a breeder, opposed to breeding their current dog?

If someone buys a pregnant bitch that whelps while in their posession, would you still consider that person the breeder? Or would you consider the previous owner of the bitch the breeder?

At what point is a breeder no longer a breeder but a puppy mill?

I have my own beliefs on what I consider to be a breeder, but I'll keep my thoughts to myself for now. I'm more interested to hear what other people go on.

I consider a byb as someone who know nothing about what there doing.
I would have no idea what to ask a breeder but I am figure there are questions you could ask.

If someone said I just want to have one litter before I get them fixed BYB
If someone like the people I got jewel from did it to make a quick buck and then could not aford to feed the puppys when it was time to ween them. BYB

If someone new what they where doing to a point or the puppys where really well taken care of and they did not know what they where doing I would give them a chance but not pay for the puppys

We dont have many real breeders in the state of texas so all we have out here is BRB or people that think they know what there doing.
So I see alot sence I volenteer at the ASPCA in houston.

Mike,

When I was a kid my next door neighbor was a sheriff's deputy who had a beautiful purebred GSD named Chief. I think Chief was a police K9 dog, but I'm not sure. Everyone called him a "police dog", but I think in the early 60's it was pretty common to refer to a GSD that way. Across the street lived a family who had a beautiful purebred GSD named Greta. They decided it would be a good idea to breed the two dogs. I was 9 at the time and we got a pup from the litter, a beautiful female. I consider these neighbors to be backyard breeders. As far as I can recall they only bred the two dogs once, and I don't believe either one of them was ever obtained for the purposes of breeding, they just decided to do it.

In general though I think backyard breeder is a generic term used to describe a breeder who really doesn't know what they are doing, and breeds dogs without regard to the strengths or weaknesses of the parents. They just like to produce litters of puppies they can give away to friends and relatives or sell cheap. Dog breeding may be something they do for income, but it isn't their sole source of income and they don't put much science into it.

personally, i consider anyone intentionally breeding pet dogs to be a back yard breeder. Sure, in each litter, you get pet quality dogs, but if a person is breeding dogs to be sold or given away as pet dogs, they are a byb.
also, a "working line/show line breeder" breeding large amounts of poor quality working and show dogs is still a back yard breeder.

if a beginner breeder is on their first litter, but under the mentorship of an experienced breeder, i dont consider them to be a byb.

I will start with what I think a breeder is.

A breeder is a person that has a complete understanding of their chosen breed. They will know the strengths, weaknesses and every characteristic (correct and/or common temperaments, structures, and all others) and the reasons that these are for that breed. From the coat texture and length, to the angle of the shoulder and the set of the tail.

They should know the history of the breed, but also all of the big players in the breed, both human and canine, past and present. The different kennels and what they were breeding for, both past and present. The different types and variations among the breed and the different family lines and what they produce physically and temperament, positive and negative.

When picking out their breeding stock, they know the ins and outs of each individual and their offspring and siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins. They know the grandparents and all of their relatives, and all strengths and weaknesses. What lines are the best to outcross to to and why. How to bring out the best in their lines. How to use inbreeding and line breeding safely and effectively. They are willing to put the time, energy, and money into proving that their dog is worthy of being bred by other breeders and judges that are as knowledgeable (or preferably more) as they are, through at least conformation or working titles, but preferably both.

The breeder can point out and accept with out shame the faults in each of their breeding dogs and resulting pups. They can be honest with a potential buyer or bitch owner (if studding) about what the animals are and are not. They understand what the puppy buyers need and can confidently place a pup in a home that may not be what the buyer originally thought they wanted. The breeder is willing to stand behind their dogs and pups for the life of that animal.

A back yard breeder is a person that breeds with out a purpose other than to make puppies. A person that has a "papered" dog that "looks good" or "has a great temperament" and they have a friend that also has the same breed. They want a puppy from their dog, or a couple of friends say they will want one. They want to make their money back for the purchase price of their dog. They think it would be fun to have puppies. My favorite is, "But he's registered!"

Often a true breeder can start their love affair with the breed this way. They learn the wrong way, but learn none the less, and eventually figure it out. But until a person can tell me all of the information in the first four paragraphs above, then they are not a true breeder.

Honestly, I hate the term "BYB"...
I think there are different levels of breeders and a lot of breeders who are now excellent, maybe started out fair or good at some point...
Maybe like a rating system:
A - Excellent - knows everything there is to know - has an awesome reputation, stands behind their dogs no matter what.
B - Good - knows a lot about the breed, but could know more, good reputation, stands behind dogs.
C - Fair - knows a lot in general about the breed, has a good reputation but maybe hasn't bred too many litters, still has a lot to learn but is working hard to learn it.
D - Poor - not a good reputation, doesn't stand behind their dogs, contracts, etc. Needs to learn a lot more...possibly breeding unhealthy dogs.
F - Pathetic - Doesn't know squat about the breed, throws 2 purebreds together regardless of temperment, health, etc. Probably spells shepherd "shepard"...

Obviously more could be added to these, but you get the point...

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

What do you consider them if a breeder is just starting out on his first litter??

I'd make my consideration based on what I know of the person, how responsible I feel they are, what they know of the breed and lines, and if they've collaborated with and received and taken advice from those more knowledgeable than themselves.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Is a breeder considered a breeder when he is breeding working lines vs. american lines? Does breeding American lines classify them as a backyard breeder?

No to both questions.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Does buying a dog specifically for the intention to breed make the person a breeder, opposed to breeding their current dog?

A lot more involved than just buying a dog for breeding or breeding their own.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

If someone buys a pregnant bitch that whelps while in their posession, would you still consider that person the breeder? Or would you consider the previous owner of the bitch the breeder?

The previous owner is the one who bred the dogs - I'd consider that person the actual "breeder" although he/she may still not qualify as a breeder themselves.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

At what point is a breeder no longer a breeder but a puppy mill?

When they care nothing about the welfare of the dogs they breed or the pups they whelp. When they keep their dogs in horrid conditions and are too lazy to exercise them, train them, and too cheap to build decent kennels for their dogs. When they care nothing about interacting with the dogs they breed. When they treat their dogs like they're robots on an assembly line.

I don't by my pup with a breeder. I by a pup from a combination i like. Little difference.

Greetings

Johan

What I look for in a breeder when I purchase a dog, and what we strive to be as well, and what's important to us are as follows:

 Quote:

So I am curious, when YOU look at a breeder, what factors do you take into consideration when determining if someone is a breeder or not?

I look for someone with a clean facility, be it a home or kennel, with healthy dogs of the type and temperament I am interested in as a first impression. I want an articulate person familiar with their lines, both the positive aspects and shortcomings. If a breeder is not willing to acknowledge shortcomings then they aren't seeing their stock in a realistic way, and that's not too cool. I look for well-documented health records and test results, and I want to see some relevant titles. I want to know that the breeder knows what they are breeding for and have some 'vision'.

 Quote:

Is it the number of litters they have produced? What do you consider them if a breeder is just starting out on his first litter??

Is it the fancy website with "vom Fruitcakehaus" kennel name ala Deutsche?

I think the number of litters produced is irrelevant to quality, though numbers give you several generations worth of knowledge base. This knowledge can be attained by mentorship as well though, or even by carefully tracking specific dogs/lines. I think anyone can develop a great website and name their dogs any exotic foreign name that they want: the proof is in the puppies, always and only in the puppies and what they grow up to be.

 Quote:

s a breeder considered a breeder when he is breeding working lines vs. american lines? Does breeding American lines classify them as a backyard breeder?

I don't think breeding only showline or Amercan lines means a person is a backyard breeder. It's all a matter of personal opinion at this point. Generally, we here prefer working-line dogs, but some show breeders would feel like any dog without a Ch. title shouldn't be bred. This part is subjective.

 Quote:

Does buying a dog specifically for the intention to breed make the person a breeder, opposed to breeding their current dog?

Yes and no. Knowing the difference between a dog that should be bred and one that shouldn't is more indicative of whether or not someone could be called a breeder.

 Quote:

If someone buys a pregnant bitch that whelps while in their posession, would you still consider that person the breeder? Or would you consider the previous owner of the bitch the breeder?

Previous owner

 Quote:

At what point is a breeder no longer a breeder but a puppy mill?

A breeder becomes a puppy mill when they are over-breeding inferior dogs with an eye primarily focused on the bottom line. A good breeder works hard to produce healthy, quality animals while being considerate of and taking extremely good care of the breeding dogs. The number of litters is limited, and the health and well-being of all animals concerned is of primary importance, and no expense is spared to this end.

A good breeding 'operation' is like anything else: It's not about the size, but the substance.

IMHO
BYB is an amateur. Amateur does not assign a value to the person or the dogs that where bred. It is possible to get a better dog from an BYB than a pro.
When breeding selectively you are trying to produce a genetically superior OR desired dog(there is a difference). Genetics involve probability and chance. You would expect at experience breeder to minimize chance and maximize probability for the desired traits.

IMO
A pro is someone at least who has a few generations of his dogs on site (including medical records) and has previous customer contacts available for references. A BYB does not.

Again that is not assigning value judgments to either.

PS
thank you fo rnot hijacking my thread