I have to ask a few questions for a co-worker of mine.

She has 2 westies (sisters, same litter) that are approx 1 year old. She had them 'obedience trained' (Petsmart...ugh) when they were younger, and is having a few problems.

1. Whoever is working with the dog (either one) is the only person the dog will listen to. (ie, she had Sadie at training, her husband had Abby. If she tells Abby to sit, the dog will ignore her, but will listen to her husband, etc)

Though she usually brings both dogs to work with her, she sometimes has to leave them at home with her Mother in law. She's afraid that if they run out the door (at home or at work) and she's not there, they won't listen to whoever calls them. How can she get them to listen to 'come' or 'sit' for anyone?

2. She's been clicker-training them, but as soon as she removes the food reward, they won't listen.

I suggested that she still do the marker training, but switch up the treats; sometimes use a 'real' treat, sometimes just a piece of kibble, Other times, drop a ball, or just use praise/petting. That way, if she doesn't have treats on her, they'll still listen.

Any other suggestions?? This is always the best place to get answers, so I figured I'd post for her to see if anyone had any ideas.

 Quote: megan berry

Though she usually brings both dogs to work with her, she sometimes has to leave them at home with her Mother in law. She's afraid that if they run out the door (at home or at work) and she's not there, they won't listen to whoever calls them. How can she get them to listen to 'come' or 'sit' for anyone?

"For anyone" is a tall order for a dog that only listens to one handler. Each person that the dog must perform for needs to do obedience with her. Some dogs will listen to anyone, other dogs don't transition well from person to person and must be taught they have to listen to each individual person. Sometimes if this is done with enough different people the dog will catch on that he has to listen to everyone, but this depends on the temperament of the dog.

 Quote:

2. She's been clicker-training them, but as soon as she removes the food reward, they won't listen.

I suggested that she still do the marker training, but switch up the treats; sometimes use a 'real' treat, sometimes just a piece of kibble, Other times, drop a ball, or just use praise/petting. That way, if she doesn't have treats on her, they'll still listen.

Any other suggestions?? This is always the best place to get answers, so I figured I'd post for her to see if anyone had any ideas.

This is the problem with people that don't understand motivational training. This is also the number one reason compulsion trainers give me for not using motivational training. The problem is not that the dog won't listen when food isn't present, the problem is that the dog has been taught that he only has to listen when there is food.

I don't know if Ed has an article on it somewhere, it certainly would save me writing it all out. But there the dog has to be weened off the food. This means the dog isn't rewarded every time they perform a given task, and, at some point, the dog isn't aware of a reward even being present. Theres alot more to it, and alot more variables involved, which is why I say look for an article on weening dogs off the reward, but teaching the dog that they only have to listen when a reward is present is basically what they are doing.

Mike,

Do you think that using a bait bag might help? I know it's still 'food-modivated', but the dog won't know the food is there, right?

One of her dogs does listen noticably more than the other. She's more mellow, and will at least sit on command & walk on a leash. The other gets wrapped up in what's going on around her, and ignores commands. Funny how two dogs from the same litter can have such different personalities...

My dogs come'a'runnin if they see (OR HEAR) me put my hand into my jacket pocket because they think the ball might come out. Dogs are incredibly perceptive. Sometimes you have to be a little creative so they don't anticipate the reward and you can catch them by surprise. When you can give them a completely random OB command and they comply, and you then reward for it, it makes a huge impact on the dog. Dogs associate performing OB commands with specifically set aside training sessions that are usually done in the same place, or the handler shows the dog the same body language (and rewards) before getting started, so it cues the dog. If you can get this enthusiasm and willingness from his OB at a time when he doesn't expect to be doing OB training, then you make a lot of progress.

I have 2 littermates. When they are in the kennels, its like they choreograph every single movement they make. I mean EXACT, down to the position in the kennel they stand in when I walk up, to both pacing the kennel at the same speed and reaching the end at the same time (separate kennels, they cant see eachother, kennels are both identical in size and layout), its like I see double.

But other than that, they are the 2 most different dogs you'd ever meet. Their personalities, their temperaments, their character and working traits, all different. One is very possessive, the other gives up the ball easy. One wants to bring the game to the handler constantly when he has a ball in his mouth, the other would rather run away. One is very intensely focused on performing OB the way I want him to, the other is a giant clown about it. One likes to be really close to me when doing OB (makes for a very nice but painful recall), the other likes to keep his distance. One has a firm solid grip on the ball, the other chews the ball. One is pretty soft and wants to "fix the problem" if you're not happy with him, the other is completely oblivious and would be fine with getting cracked over the head with a 2x4.

Littermates can be incredibly different Which is good, it'd be boring having 2 identical dogs.

Mike,

In my college Psych. 101 class, back in 1972, (man, I'm old!) we were taught that in shaping behavior and in training animals the most effective method was to start by rewarding the behavior each time we got it until the animal learned the cue or command. Then start removing the rewards gradually, until they came randomly. So maybe reward for a recall every time, then every other time, then every third time, and then randomly. So the animal knew there was always the possibility of a reward, but never knew when it might come.

Of course, this was with lab rats. Don't know how it works with dogs. I do know that with my own dog if he thinks I have a treat he will obey, with enthusiasm, until he gets it. I'll grab a treat and make him do doggy push ups. Sit, down, sit, down, sit, down, speak, sit, down, go find mom, come, etc. I can get a lot of mileage just by holding one lousy little piece of liver biscotti.

 Quote:

In my college Psych. 101 class, back in 1972, (man, I'm old!) we were taught that in shaping behavior and in training animals the most effective method was to start by rewarding the behavior each time we got it until the animal learned the cue or command. Then start removing the rewards gradually, until they came randomly. So maybe reward for a recall every time, then every other time, then every third time, and then randomly. So the animal knew there was always the possibility of a reward, but never knew when it might come.

That's basically what I was getting at Rich. The problem with perceptive dogs is that they know it's coming based on the handlers body language and familiar actions that they associate with OB training.

For example, if you have a pouch on your belt every time you do OB, the dog knows "hey he has a pouch on his belt... I better get in drive and start listening, because some time in my near future I am getting something good." The pouch (or the sound of reaching into your jacket pocket) becomes a cue for the dog to start listening. You want the dog to listen regardless of the presence of a pouch or the scent of food in the air, which is why you have to be a little creative in staging your OB training scenarios for proofing the dog, otherwise you simply proof the dog to listen to you when he is cued by the promise of a reward.

Make sense?

This makes perfect sence! Also keeps me from asking my other question, lol.

My SIL had her dog run through the petsmart puppy class. You would NEVER guess this dog had obedience. Supposedly, he was 'top of his class'. But I now know the issue: Not only do they NOT practice AT ALL with him, but he was great 'in class'. Special location, special equipment, so he was always 'in drive'. No wonder he doesn't listen at home, they never work him there!

Could this be the same situation with the two littermates?

My next question: if two dogs are together, how is the best way to work training? Or do they have to be separated for it?

Being together should be considered a distraction. If the dog is not ready for training under distraction then they should be separate.

Once they reach a certain point, you can start doing stuff like placing one dog in a long down while you do OB with the other dog, or give them the same commands and reward each when they do it, or start working with their names and tell one to sit and the other one to down etc. But this is all after the dogs are solid on everything.

I could never do obedience practise with two of my dogs out.

If my other dogs can even hear me in the other room giving the commands, they fuss in their crates.

I agree with Mike that having both together would be a HUGE distraction and the dogs wouldn't learn well that way.

Thanks for all of the great tips! I'll pass them on!