It's been about two months since I've posted here, I think, and Darwin hadn't improved very much with his reaction to other dogs. I keep him on a close leash, so he doesn't actually do anything, but he still barks and growls and tries to get at (some) other dogs while we're walking.

So I decided to try a prong collar - I know that many of you advised against, but if I understood correctly, your main concern was giving a poorly timed correction and making Darwin think that the other dog was causing the pain. So I thought there wasn't much to lose by trying a couple of times without any correction, and just using it to stop him from chasing the other dogs and pulling the collar tight himself.

Well, so far it has worked wonderfully - a miraculous transformation. After just a couple of times he can sit quietly (if not totally relaxed) while other dogs walk past. He knows that chasing them just isn't fun anymore. Again, I don't correct, just hold the leash tight so that any sudden movements of his pull on the collar.

Do you think that after some time (months?) it will be possible to go back to walking him with just a flat collar, or will he revert to his old behaviour?

Dogs can become collar-wise...They know which collar does what and behave accordingly. Ed and others recommend rotating collars several times/day, having the dog wear both at the same time...mixing it up so the dog doesn't catch on.

The following link talks about this using an electric collar but I think the basic principals may still apply:

http://www.leerburg.com/basictraining.htm

My dog barely pulls on a prong collar but will pull my arm out with a flat collar. My mistake. I didn't rotate collars long enough. I think the heeling work we're doing may help correct it .

Here's another update (sorry in advance for the long post). The prong collar worked quite well for keeping Darwin away from other dogs, but when a loose dog would come up to him and he's get started, he just didn't pay the slightest attention to any correction - not on dead ring or live ring. Once he got going, he would bark and struggle until the collar came apart (thankfully we had a backup).

In the end, I came to the conclusion that with the number of loose dogs we have around here, I'm fighting against nature by trying to keep Darwin away from them - I figured that it was only frustrating him. So I started letting him approach dogs that I knew weren't too aggressive. And most of the time, there was no problem at all - they would sniff each other and move on. Occassionally we'd come across a dog who got snappy, and then Darwin would be as happy to back off as I was.

So that was a partial solution. But we still had the problem of the handful of dogs who were either aggressive, or whom Darwin has a particular dislike for (why DO dogs dislike some other dogs?).

I figured it was time to put more emphasis on basic obedience. Darwin hasn't learnt to heel yet, so I've been keeping him on 10" of leash when we walk, so he gets used to staying near me. And when he has a problem with another dog - here's the tough part - I get him to sit. It took a while to figure out how, and I'd appreciate your opinions on this method, because I haven't read about anything like it here. I take him by the collar, behind the head, and, after telling him to sit, twist the collar slightly so that it tightens on his neck. Unlike a dominant collar, or even a prong collar, I have complete control over how tight it gets, so I'm not too worried about hurting him. This usually gets his attention, and when he realises I'm there, and telling him to sit, he does (and gets lots of treats for it). Once he's down, he'll usually stay if I keep telling him and stroking him (and feeding him).

The big disadvantage is that until he minds me, he can be jumping and struggling to get free, and I've got some pretty deep scratches on my arms.

I'm very wary of any "system" that I've invented myself, so I'd really like some encouragement, or criticism - either will do.

 Quote: Arik Kershenbaum

. . .I'm fighting against nature by trying to keep Darwin away from them. . .I started letting him approach dogs that I knew weren't too aggressive. And most of the time, there was no problem at all. . .we still had the problem of the handful of dogs who were either aggressive, or whom Darwin has a particular dislike for . . .

First off, I'm not an experienced trainer. And I haven't followed all your posts or the replies about your dog's behavior. What I would suggest, tho, is that you show your dog that you are the pack leader and that it's not necessary for him to become the aggressive/protective one when meeting other dogs. Step in front of Darwin, block the other dog(s), stop a confrontation and he'll see that you're taking charge, that he doesn't have to get exited and jump into the fray. I would also hold off letting him approach other dogs until you get better about reading him/other dogs when they first meet (your post indicates you have misread some encounters), and until Darwin has seen a few situations where you stepped in and took the lead and didn't let things got out of hand.

I don't think the training should consist 100% of controlling his reactions without you establishing your role as well.

JMO

Mike

I think I posted a while ago about how Darwin would always react more aggressively when I took charge of a confrontation. It was as if he was waiting for the signal that this was a aggressive encounter. Since then I've been avoiding placing myself between the two, and he's much better - if he doesn't approach the other dog aggressively, the encounter doesn't turn aggressive.

But there are some particular dogs that he just has to spot at a distance, and he gets really worked up. I have no idea what could be the cause of this hatred, but in these cases, he has to be controlled.

What kind of dogs?

For example, my mom's standard poodle, doesn't like dogs with erect ears (ie, GSDs, Akitas, dogs with cropped ears...)

Arik,
For my part, and others (maybe many others) will disagree, but I don't really care about the dog being collar wise. As long as the dog minds. I'll gladly take the collar on and off it's whole life, as long as the dog listens when the chips are down.
The trick in my mind is always making it a positive thing in the dogs experience. Ooooh, we're going for a walk. Oh boy, let's go do some OB. Yeah yeah, wanta go down town, etc, etc. Always positive. Any correction or anything approaching negative is flat, no nonsense. It's really no different then giving the dog a good reference for a tracking harness or a bite sleeve. Make it up beat, something good to be part of. Given time, every time he hears that chime of the collar he'll be right there sitting pretty, barely containing himself wanting to go for what ever.
For the casual walks. I don't ask for strict heels, however I do expect a loose lead in my hands as well as a halt and sit when I quit walking. If the dog doesn't sit when I stop walking, I don't give any command at all, and I don't touch the dog or collar, all I do is apply a small amount of pressure directly up ward on the leash, just enough to make it uncomfortable (not a correction). A few seconds later, at the most, the dog sits, the pressure is released, stroke and rub behind the ears, good girl/boy. Make it so this is a comfortable position. It works for me.
Your situation with all the loose dogs however, for myself and my dog, it would take about a week, and I guarantee no dog would even approach us. I'd put them in complete avoidence with some obnoxious spray from a bottle I carried with me. Postal workers will know. If that didn't work, I'd get more agressive in my methods. But they wouldn't want to get close to me or my dog period............One week......They learn fast.
You have to be aware of how you react to any situation as well as how your dog is taking it all in. For instance; I'd be surprised if my dog was to do anything other than react negatively to an out stimulus if that is how I reacted first. So if you're edgy to start with, the dog is going to follow. Keep it in mind.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

You have to be aware of how you react to any situation as well as how your dog is taking it all in. For instance; I'd be surprised if my dog was to do anything other than react negatively to an out stimulus if that is how I reacted first. So if you're edgy to start with, the dog is going to follow. Keep it in mind.

Totally agree with this. Totally.
I find that many owners I work with may think they are not reacting, but in all reality, even the slightest change in grip on the lead, your breathing ect, can trigger your dog to go on alert.

You may not realize it, but you may be slowing down slightly, or going a bit faster, you may pull on the lead without realizing or even taking up slack before anything ever happens which in turn tells your dog something is gonna happen.

I used to do it too, but just paying attention to yourself or maybe even have someone who knows you and your dog well watch you to see if they can pick up on anything.

I also agree with Mike A's post as well.

I would agree with the above. I have a six and a haly year old Bordeaux and a five year old Neapolitan. The started to become dog aggressive a couple of years ago and I've had to work really hard over the past six months or so to get them to where they are now. We generally will have a civil wal now, wioth now confrontations, as long as I am aware of the incoming dog's body language and I remain calm and in control throughout.

The technique I used initially was the second I saw the incoming dog, which hopefully was before the dogs saw him, I would produce a really smelly treat in front of my dogs' noses. This usually got their attnetion. Initially, I would continue to feed the dog the treats until the other dog passed.

When they were then paying attention to me, I would delay the giving of the treat, i.e. ask for more attention from them before they were rewarded.

When they were then doing this, they got the treat after the other dogs had passed.

This process took a couple of weeks, with me taking treats out on every walk, and i had two large dogs to work with!

This had th e ffect of destressing me to an encounter with another dog, making me more confident in dealing with it, this energy was then projected onto the dogs which made them less likely to kick off which in turn gave me more confidence.

The technique works well when marking the behaviour with a clicker or voice marker.

I am now at the stage now where my dogs will look at me when a dog comes towards them expecting to be rewarded for their good behaviour which I can more often do with verbal praise and use slight leash corrections when I need to.

Keep the dog by your side at all times when out walking, if he's ahead of you, he thinks it's his job to meet other dogs and not yours.

My dogs are far less likely to react to another dog if it walks passed in a calm manner by it's owner's side than one who comes in a head of them with it's ears and head up and an erect tail waving slowly.

I hope all this makes sense and that it helps.