Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
#222525 - 01/05/2009 08:27 PM |
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I have a 3 year old American Mastiff from flying w farms. Overall he is fantastic. He does not act dominant to anyone in the family including my 3 girls ages 5,8 and 14. He is very well behaved, walks well and gets along great with dogs that he knows. The problem is when he encounters a strange dog. I always keep about a fifteen foot distance from aproaching people with dogs because sometimes he decides to pounce and pin the dog down. Keep in mind he weighs 205 lbs and it takes a little distance to stop his initial lunge. He doesn't growl or bark as a warning he simply pins them down until they submit, then he is fine. He has actually done this to two dogs and the owners were very understanding and realized it was a dominance thing. There was no actual biting. there have been a half dozen times where I was able to anticipate it and hold him back. He has never been aggresive to puppies or small dogs. He was challenged only once by a search and rescue dog owned by a friend. Both dogs were off their leashes and running together. When he became too rough the other dog went at him. He initially backed down then copied the other dog. After a stern speaking to, both dogs were fine and continued without issue. My question is wether or not I shoud use a shock collar for future corrections for this problem.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Craig MacElhiney ]
#222532 - 01/05/2009 09:42 PM |
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Is he intact or neutered? What are you doing when you notice another dog approaching/near by? Do you tend to tense up?
When did this begin? At around what age/what happened when this first started?
You say there is no biting or aggression, what is his body language like? Does he become stiff and tense, is his tail wagging? If so is it a loose low wag or a high tense wag or somewhere in between?
What training have you done with him? Is he obedience trained (formally taught commands and follows them 100%?) What training methods were used on him?
Sorry for all the questions but it helps us all figure out your situation so we can give you advice.
Dominance is not something to take lightly. This behavior could lead to a serious fight. I have met dogs that are dominant without being aggressive. My last AB was a very confident dominant dog, he would not bark, not growl, but he would attempt to physically dominate every other dog he came across from the age of 6 months on. He was not allowed to be around other dogs off lead or without me on the other end of his lead because while he was not being "aggressive" by human standards, his actions were aggressively dominant and this could easily provoke another dog into a very bloody battle. Obedience is what kept him in line with other dogs.
I recommend working on his obedience. Have you ever tried distracting him with anything to take his attention off the other dog? What kind of equipment do you use when you walk him? Simply because of his size I would recommend a properly fitted prong and/or DD collar if you don't already have them. I do not recommend an electric collar at this point.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#222570 - 01/06/2009 09:15 AM |
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Totally agree w/Jen. I think an E collar at this point is a bad move, if for no other reason than the fact that your timing has to be PERFECT or you can spark a hideous fight when all you meant to do was prevent one. If you don't correct at the instant that thought enters his mind and wait until he's "in the zone" forget it; you may just intensify the attack b/c he may associate the stim w/the other dog, or just piss him off enough that he mauls the dog instead of dominating him like he had originally intended.
I wouldn't take him anywhere w/out a PROPERLY fitted prong collar-nice and snug, right behind the ears. Don't anticipate the problem and pull back on him; this will only cause him to heighten his suspicion; emotions travel down the leash.
Having said not to anticipate and therefore inadvertantly cause a problem, also, you must make sure other dogs are safe from yours. Where in the rule book does it say he must be allowed to get that close to other dogs? I personally would NEVER let my giant breed dog, known to be dominant, to interact w/a strangers dog unless I had a fetish for lawsuits.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Craig MacElhiney ]
#222663 - 01/06/2009 07:29 PM |
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Thanks for the replies. First off he was nuetered at six months. He only had basic puppy training and has always been very obedient. He does what he is told and a stern voice is all that is required. He has never been chastised in any other way. He is not at all hyper and I took care not to play rough with him when he was young because of advice from the breeder. He was well socialized with dogs and has several good friends whom he plays well with.
The majority of encounters with other dogs take place where we camp. It is a dog friendly campground where leashes are required. We are there every weekend from may through october. The first episode caught me off gaurd as we were passing another dog on a leash heading the opposite direction. He was almost two years old. It happened so quickly all I could do was pull him back and tell him no. The other dog simply rolled on her back and he stopped and continued on with me. (after I appologized profusely to the owner who was fine) The second episode was when two dogs were let off of their leash by their owner. They came on our site and were pounced upon. I was a couple hundred feet away and heard the comotion. Freinds that were right there described it as being similar to the first episode. It didn't last more that about three seconds since my dog was tied and the others were able to get away from him. In that case the owner of the other dogs was very appologetic to me.
Since then, when we approach other dogs I wait till he notices them. When he perks up I imediatley tell him NO in a stern voice. His reaction is to relax and obey, for about a second then he becomes alert and posturous again, to which I tell him NO again. It goes back and forth a few times then he starts to pull toward them. He starts to pull when they are about ten feet away and I have been able to anticipate this and control him. Of course the other dog and owners don't come any closer at this point and we avoid each other. His tail wags and he seems somewhat playfull or anxious to get to them. Once past each other he pays no attention to them after looking back once or twice.
The most recent episode, the other dog cowered at the sight of his posturing and whined running to his owner. That took place in the woods near our home. Both dogs were off leashes and I simply called him to me and held his collar when I saw them coming. He hadn't noticed them yet so we simply sat there as they approached. We said hello as he draged me a few feet toward them before getting my footing. I explained that he was very dominant. They asked how much he weighed, I told them and they smiled and went on their way. As soon as they started moving away from us I could have released him but I waited till they were out of sight to be safe. Also, if we were 100 feet away from another dog he wouldn't pay much attention to them and would certainly come to me if told to.
I have always used a nylon collar when walking him but obviously need to get something different. I'm not familiar with prong collars or any other product that may work. I agree the timing would have to be perfect in order to benefit from a shock collar which is apparently not the way to go. Specific collars you would recomend would be helpfull. He wears a 28-30 inch nylon collar.
I think I have answered all of you questions, let me know if you have any more. I appreciate your advice and it makes good sense to me. I would attach some photos if I could figure out how to.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Craig MacElhiney ]
#222665 - 01/06/2009 07:49 PM |
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He only had basic puppy training and has always been very obedient. He does what he is told and a stern voice is all that is required. ..... when we approach other dogs I wait till he notices them. When he perks up I imediatley tell him NO in a stern voice. His reaction is to relax and obey, for about a second then he becomes alert and posturous again, to which I tell him NO again. It goes back and forth a few times then he starts to pull toward them.
I'm hoping that it's clear to you by this that he is obedient when it suits him and that you do not have control of the dog. He cannot be off leash in public.
I would have a DD collar on him. I'd be working daily on obedience, first with no distraction, then a little, and moving gradually towards obedience with very tempting distraction at a distance, then closer, and so on.
Dominance without aggression, as you described it, can absolutely be as deadly as dominant-aggression. He and you are very fortunate that he has not "pinned down until they submit" a dog who did not "submit." You would be at fault for any injuries (or even death) resulting from your uncontrolled dog's actions, not to mention any injuries to humans trying to intervene.
I don't mean to sound harsh. I am putting myself in the position of the owner of a dog, minding his own business, who was "pinned down until he submitted" by an uncontrolled 200-pound dog. Or any dog.
Have you done obedience work in the past? Would you like suggestions for threads, articles, videos?
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#222948 - 01/07/2009 10:49 PM |
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Thank you for the post. I'm not sure I have given you an accurate picture of what kind of animal he is. Mastiffs by nature are very calm. Not much will catch his attention unless it is an unfamiliar dog as described in the post above. It would be odd for him to get up off of the front porch to chase a squirrel in the yard.
Obedience always suits him except for when he encounters a dog he is not familiar with which is why I started this tread to begin with. I'm not sure what I could use to tempt him from a distance or up close for that matter. The only thing that would distract him would be another dog and he would pay very little attention to an unfamiliar dog at a distance. A dog whom he knows would only make him want to play. If I worked daily on his obedience it would consist of me telling him what to do and him doing it. He would get tired relatively quickly and go lay down.
As you read in my previous post;
"He was challenged only once by a search and rescue dog owned by a friend. Both dogs were off their leashes and running together. When he became too rough the other dog went at him. He initially backed down then copied the other dog. After a stern speaking to both dogs were fine and continued without issue."
To be more specfic when he got too rough they were trotting side by side and he started bumping. The other dog displayed his teeth snapped and barked at him. He paused, almost fell over himself backing away, then barked and snarled back. At that point both I and the other dogs owner spoke loudly at them and They went on as normal and had no further issues.
I guess the point is that the only time he is disobedient is when he meets new dogs. The only time he was uncontrolled and made contact with another dog was the first time. I was caught off guard because he had not done it before. Since then I have been able to avoid confrontations when walking him. That first time was a year and a half ago. I'm simply trying to figure out how to curb this behavior so we don't have to avoid other dogs.
Could you give me some more specific info on what a DD collar is? If it will prevent him from being able to pull while on his leash it sounds like it will solve my problem. Not being able to pull away from me will allow me to focus on regaining his attention rather than physically restaining him.
Thanks again for all of the posts. They have been helpful.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Craig MacElhiney ]
#222962 - 01/08/2009 08:36 AM |
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Craig, I think from what you describe, a prong collar will work better for you. If worn properly, this will prevent your dog from being able to pull you.
I use a prong on my bullmastiff mix and it is very effective in preventing her from pulling.
Here is the one I bought from Leerburg:
http://leerburg.com/prong.htm#ssquickprong
Also read the Leerburg article on properly fitting a prong, and use a backup collar that is attached to the prong. I couple my dog's prong to her regular collar with this:
http://leerburg.com/pulltab.htm
This is a safety feature: if the prong comes undone, the dog is still attached to your leash by the backup collar. You can also opt to link to a DD collar (dominant dog dollar). Do some research on this site and read about these collars to determine what would work for you in your circumstance. There are articles about both types of collars here that you can read for free.
Prongs look a bit medieval, but they are very humane to use; much safer and more effective than a choke collar. They work by compressing the skin and muscle in the dog's neck. It's uncomfortable for the dog, and deters the dog from pulling. You can try it on your arm or leg and see what it feels like yourself.
That being said, they are not recommended to be used for correcting a dog for dog aggression. I am suggesting the prong only as a method to prevent your dog from pulling you.
The best way for you to prevent his dominance toward other dogs is to not place him in those types of situations. When encountering strange dogs, keep moving and don't allow him to fixate.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Lynne Barrows ]
#222967 - 01/08/2009 10:26 AM |
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I'm going to paint a hypothetical picture here, and you may take it for what you will Craig, but I hope it helps you see this in a new light.
Say you're out camping with your otherwise fantastic dog.
A five year old child is out walking her dog, and ventures too close to yours. Your dog jumps on the strange dog and pins him to the ground before you can react.
The child, being afraid that her doggy is being hurt, tries to push your dog off of hers, placing her face at the same level as your dogs mouth.
Child's parents call the Cops, who take your dog. Animal Control destroys your dogs (many of the mastiff breeds don't get a second chance in most jurisdictions. One bite and they're done.)
Do you see the concern? Even very friendly dogs can bite, very viciously, in that sort of situation.
A second, probably more likely scenario is, your dog pins another to the ground, and they call the cops on you. After being hasseled by Law Enforcement, Animal Control comes and seizes your dog. Dog is destroyed by Animal Control.
Leerburg has many good articles addressing issues of dog-to-dog aggression, and one of the best recommendations I can make is to read the articles thoroughly, and print them out.
Take them with you while you shop for a good, experienced dog trainer.
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Aaron Myracle ]
#222969 - 01/08/2009 10:50 AM |
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Re: Mastiff dominant towards some dogs
[Re: Craig MacElhiney ]
#222975 - 01/08/2009 11:22 AM |
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A DD collar is similar to the Nylon Choke your using now. I would pay attention to what Alyssa wrote. If your dog wants to lunge at anything you are too close. It doesnt matter if you manage to stop him in time.
(I may be miss-reading what you said about Nylon Collar, I just thought of a Nylon Choke probably because I have some)
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