Recently I switched my lab from dry/canned food to a real food diet. I'm doing some raw and some cooked. For the most part, everything seems to be going pretty well. The only roadblock has been with red meat. For some reason he seems to make himself vomit after eating red meat. He doesn't do it all the time, just some of them time.

Here's some typical meal scenarios...
-Veggies: Chopped or blended vegetables, usually lightly steamed or raw carrots, spinach, broccoli and/or sweet potato (sometimes some fruit too)
-Protein: Steamed, raw or canned fish; or boiled chicken including bones; and/or raw chicken livers
-Vitamins: Salmon Oil, Vitamin E or C, Multi-Vitamin and/or Glucosamine (as needed)
-yields ~1 lbs. (2 meals a day)
After a meal like this he is usually fine and in great shape. No problems whatsoever. I usually ration by eye for more protein than veggies.

However, once I introduce red meat of any kind, he gets a little more unpredictable. So far I've given him raw beef, boiled beef, cooked ground venison and cooked ground buffalo. The buffalo gave him no problems, and the deer only made him vomit once. However, the beef will always make him vomit. The only way I can get any beef into him is if I put a very small amount mixed in with some chicken or fish.

I should mention that he vomited pretty frequently on the kibble. He would do this at least once a week or every two weeks, but now only does it after eating red meat. It's not like he's getting sick. It's as if he doesn't like the way the food settled in his stomach. Immediately after he eats, if he doesn't like it, he'll go straight outside and start gagging himself until he pukes. Then he's as happy as can be.

Some of this makes me wonder if he just eats too fast, because he is a quick eater. He can eat a pound of food in well under a minute. However, since switching to real food, it has never happened with anything but red meat. When feeding red meat, I'm going to try feeding him in smaller increments and see if his stomachs settles better.

Any ideas? Is red meat harder to digest? It can't be that much more difficult than any other meat.

By the way, I want to switch to a more RMB/raw food-laden diet soon. I want to add some more organ meat, but am waiting on a few things to fall in place so I can get a reliable source. I've only been doing this for about a month so I still have a lot to learn.

Thanks for any help ya'll can give!

Welcome John!

The one thing that jumped out at me was

 Quote:

boiled chicken including bones;

Feed only raw meaty bones (RMB's)
The boiled chicken alone is fine, but i would never feed any cooked bones ever When they are cooked they become brittle and can splinter.

You want to make sure that the canned meats, especially tuna is without sodium or rinsed off at least. Also, be aware of high mercury content in canned fish.
Sardines, and Mackerel are preferred.

I would highly recommend you do some reading on feeding raw. Read the whole section of "feeding dogs" on this site. It has a lot of questions and answers and also check out the books on raw feeding recommended here at LB.

I would also want to know why he was vomiting on kibble.
Was the kibble you were feeding a beef based kibble?
While food allergies are not as common, the vomiting can be a sign of food allergy. Does he also get diarrhea from the kibble as well?

You won't regret feeding raw as it is so much healthier for your dog, but I would do lots more reading just to get the general basics. You can't go wrong with trying to emulate the diet that Leerburg has as there are sample diets for a week.
Check those out, and also I am sure we will hear from the long time raw feeders soon, to help you further.
Best of luck to you John.

This Leerburg ebook has tons of info and Q&A's on raw feeding. It also has sample meals - I follow these still!

The cooked bones was the first thing that stuck out to me too! When I started feeding raw, and most people here do the same, you just want to start out with one or two things and add variety slowly - that way you will know what bothers them, if anything. The best way to start is with chicken backs and white chicken meat. Do that only for the first few days and see how he does. Then add in a little beef or fish. A few days later start adding a little organ meat like chicken livers. If you just start right in with all the stuff you are giving, it's hard to tell what's happening if they have a problem.

Thanks Joyce. I have done a good bit of reading. I've read Marty Goldstein's book as well as a lot research on the internet and this site. Obviously there is still more out there that I will get to.

Like I said, the chicken has not been the problem, only red meat. Also, why would canned fish have any higher mercury content than fresh/frozen fish?

Most of the kibble was lamb and chicken based. I gave him an assortment of canned food and I never noticed a relationship between the beef-based stuff and his vomiting. His bowel movements have been normal and healthy, even after vomiting. There is no diarrhea.

I want to feed him raw, but it's just taking me a little while to find a reliable and affordable source of meat. Like Goldstein, I'd much prefer to feed pastured animals. Ironically, pastured beef is easy to get here. I have a whole side coming in a few days. But, around here, finding affordable pastured poultry has been more difficult. I'm sure it's out there, I just have to keep searching. I'll probably just try the grocery store stuff... I just have some reservations about serving industrialized meats raw.

 Quote: Lori Hall

If you just start right in with all the stuff you are giving, it's hard to tell what's happening if they have a problem.

I thought so too. I've tried isolating the meals to a single protein. For instance, just fish and some veggies, or just chicken and some veggies. So that's kind of how I realized the red meat was making him puke.

However I think I might try to serve the red meat in small amounts along with the fish and chicken. That's a good idea.

Hi, John,

I highly recommend that you stop giving cooked bones.

And red meat isn't usually something to start out with because it so rarely has the digestible bones that the dog has to have with the meat.

If you start with something like raw chicken backs (take off the skin and globs of fat for a couple of days and then slowly restore them) and then add each new item as you see perfect poop with the old item(s), you will know exactly what item is causing a problem.

The complete diet (including produce, fish oil, organ meat, fish, etc.) is a goal that you reach over a matter of days, perhaps a week or more.

Cooked bones (except the bones in canned fish like mackerel, salmon, sardines, which are soft from the canning process) have no place in the diet, though.

And the mercury was a reference to some kinds of canned tuna, which can be a high-mercury fish -- whether canned or fresh. Regardless, tuna doesn't have the bones canned with it and is less desirable from that standpoint alone.

Have you read any of the LB feeding pages? Would you like links?

QUOTE: "Protein: Steamed, raw or canned fish; or boiled chicken including bones; and/or raw chicken livers"

Organ meat would be about 5 to 10% of the diet. Some canned fish, as mentioned, has no bone.

Cooked poultry bones are not safe.

Good for you that you are posting and researching.

Yes, I've read the LB site. I understand that cooked bones are not safe, but I have also not given my dog very many. I've also watched him absolutely pulverize them and pass them without any troubles. However, I realize that it is a risky move, so I will be sure to only give him raw bones in the future.

Regardless, his intake of boiled chicken bones obviously has no impact on his inability to hold down red meat. Also, as far as canned fish go, I feed him mostly canned salmon, and some of it has bones.

 Quote: john saad

Yes, I've read the LB site. I understand that cooked bones are not safe, but I have also not given my dog very many. I've also watched him absolutely pulverize them and pass them without any troubles. However, I realize that it is a risky move, so I will be sure to only give him raw bones in the future.

Regardless, his intake of boiled chicken bones obviously has no impact on his inability to hold down red meat. Also, as far as canned fish go, I feed him mostly canned salmon, and some of it has bones.

No, cooked chicken has nothing to do with red meat GI problems.

"I understand that cooked bones are not safe, but I have also not given my dog very many."

I'd be addressing the amount of calcium in this case. The way that small prey "comes," with its ratio of meat to bones (and therefore phosphorus to calcium) is the ratio the canid requires over the long term.

That is, if you feed chicken and "don't give very many" of the bones, then the dog is not getting the calcium he needs, which is the calcium that comes attached to the meat when you feed RMBs (raw meaty bones). RMBs are the small prey itself, usually in pieces (chicken backs, chicken quarters, a quartered rabbit, etc.).

If you start with poultry RMBs and have no digestive issues, you can add the remaining items one by one and watch. With this dog, I'd add red meat in a very small amount. If that's fine, then slightly more next day, and so on.

The goal of meals like these samples http://leerburg.com/diet2.htm is achieved pretty quickly, but with a dog having GI issues, it's best achieved one item and a time, with potential problems (organ meat, sometimes red meat) added slowly and gradually without adding another new item at the same time.



This guy was vomiting on kibble, too, though, so I'd want to ID the problem.

Is it early in the morning that the vomiting happens? Or immediately after a meal?

Is it bile, or is it the actual meal he ate?

 Quote: John Saad

I will be sure to only give him raw bones in the future.

Digestible bones, just to be on the same page. RMBs.

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm#RMB