Altho I do not do sch, I attend weekly to work on my obed with a friend to a top trainer/decoy. He used to train many years ago with compulsion like many older trainers, where everything was - the dog would do it or else, like running their leads thru ties on the ground and jerking them down to make them go down. One of the guys that trains there has a phenominal mallie and is headed for his Schlll at the SW Regionals in March. This dog always scors above 95 in obed and protection but not as high in tracking. He insists on using an ecollar and will have the trainer use it during the bark and hold and when chasing the decoy. He always has it in his hand and feels, even tho this dog is exceptional, that he has to lean on this magic button. The trainer disagrees and says there really is no reason for it, it's just another gimmick and sometimes a substitute for the time it takes to train the dog properly - ie: the quick fix. The trainer also says, that if you do use the ecollar, it should never be used when you're mad, or by inexperienced people. It takes training to know when and how to properly use it.

Question: what are people's feelings on 1)leaning on the ecollar as a crutch instead of not taking the time to train the dog and wanting a quick fix 2)opinions on inexperienced handlers using it.

Reason I'm asking is because so many people nowadays seem to think that this method is the miracle train all - people who IMO have no business using them. I'm sure this is controversial but worth asking. Please no nasty remarks.

Funny, I ran into a woman in the woods yesterday, who was frantically chasing her black lab while mashing the button on her Sport Dog remote. It wasn't working.

I told her that mashing the buttons while saying "come" was probably a bad idea, and that she should check this site out. I hope she finds it!

Both of the trainers I am looking at using are e-collar advocates. I'm really not sure how I feel about handling the remote myself at this point in time.

Oh, Ross, I forgot to say, he got into such a habit of carrying the remote that he accidently pressed it on the stand stay and now the dog drops every time he tries to do this. It caused a major back step in his training and the regionals are in 2 weeks - so he has to fix this oops - that the dog won't easily forget in a short time.

You're right about the button press - sometimes the dog will keep running to get out of range of the remote in order to avoid it.

 Quote: Lynne Peck

Question: what are people's feelings on 1)leaning on the ecollar as a crutch instead of not taking the time to train the dog and wanting a quick fix 2)opinions on inexperienced handlers using it.

1. The ecollar should never be used as a crutch. It is a viable training tool but is only a tool... it still requires a committed, interested trainer at the other end of the remote. When I hear of someone using it as a crutch, I see a collar being misused.

2. Everyone is inexperienced when first beginning to use the collar - this is totally dependant on whether they enlist the help of an experienced trainer, mentor, do their research, etc...

I don't think you are going to find too many people on LB saying it is okay to use as a crutch...

An e-collar is a TOOL, just like any other & can be used properly or misused. Many people DO use it as the 'quick fix' instead of training properly. It takes time to train properly & often people don't want to take the time needed to do it the 'long' way. It should never be used in place of proper training. It is unfair to your dog. The dog needs to be 'taught' how the collar works. That also takes time to do properly. Good training cannot be rushed. When you rush, you skip steps that down the line will come back to bite you. There are reasons & logic to training in the proper steps for you training to be clear to your dog in a happy, respectful way.

It's easy to push a button, very ditatched & can be unemotional, which in some cases is good & in others, bad. If used badly it can destroy the bond you have with your dog. When used correctly, it can be a great way to communicate off lead with your dog.

Many 'trainers' that take dog's in for training use the short cuts, because time is money. The faster they train a dog the sooner the next one can come in the door for training.

I have e-collars on my dogs when they are off my property. But I can also say that I can count on 1 hand the amount of times that I have had to use it in the 6 1/2 years that I owned e-collars. My dogs are out training on local sports & school fields often multiple times a day with all kinds of distractions going on around them. It is a great tool to have in your 'bag of trix' just in case....but if you need to rely on it....something is wrong with your training.

Often if e-collars are used in training on a regular basis, the dogs will get collar-wise & often not perform as well on trial day when the collar is removed.

ETA....there are only a couple of people on the planet that I would had over my e-collar controller to, while the collars are on my dogs.

1) A crutch is a crutch.... it's a temporary/quick fix of a problem. If you lay your foundation correctly from the beginning then you should be able to avoid the use of crutches.

2) I'm with Barbara. Everyone is inexperienced when beginning with a e-collar. The best you can hope for it that people watch Ed's DVD, or get lots of advice from an experienced trainer that does NOT use avoidance methods.

I think it has it's places in training- and I think many people overuse it. It's a great tool when you're in the proofing stage of training, but like any other tool, needs to be phased out.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

... I don't think you are going to find too many people on LB saying it is okay to use as a crutch...

I don't think so either.

 Quote: kelly byrd

1) A crutch is a crutch.... it's a temporary/quick fix of a problem. If you lay your foundation correctly from the beginning then you should be able to avoid the use of crutches.

2) I'm with Barbara. Everyone is inexperienced when beginning with a e-collar. The best you can hope for it that people watch Ed's DVD, or get lots of advice from an experienced trainer that does NOT use avoidance methods.

I think it has it's places in training- and I think many people overuse it. It's a great tool when you're in the proofing stage of training, but like any other tool, needs to be phased out.

Can you go more into depth here?

I don't know what the phrases "avoidance methods" or "proofing stage" mean.

"I don't know what the phrases "avoidance methods" or "proofing stage" mean."


In this context, avoidance training, IMO, would be synonymous with escape training. This is not a training method that's popular here or on the LB site.

"Proofing" is what I call the stage after I have taught the command, during which I "proof" it for changes of venue and gradually increased distraction.

"Look at me" in the kitchen with no one but the dog and me isn't the same as "Look at me" outside, say, with people cycling past, a baseball game going on nearby, and dogs barking a hundred feet away.

In the context of 4 quadrants of operant conditioning escape = negative reinforcement, avoidance = positive punishment.

This free LB video explains what escape/avoidance training means and how it is used in dog training.