2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
#363581 - 07/05/2012 11:14 PM |
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Long time lurker and Leerburg customer…
We have a 5 yr. old female shepherd/boxer mix, Aiya that we got from a shelter about 4 years ago and a 21 month old female Rhodesian Ridgeback, Riley that we got at 8 weeks. Both are fixed. The two have always gotten along wonderfully and been trusted to be alone in the kitchen and out in backyard thru a dog door when we weren’t home. We exercise them daily, usually once in the morning and once in the evening, for at least 45 minutes to an hour each time. Riley has always been a little timid. In the past couple of months, she had started doing small nervous growls when Aiya approached. We didn’t correct because we had read that by correcting that behavior Riley could end up just attacking/reacting with no warning. If we heard the growl we also would look to Aiya to see if she might be showing any signs that might trigger Riley to react that way but we didn’t notice anything; she was simply just walking into the room the same way she had done from the first day we brought Riley home. Riley was not constantly growling, and often times would growl one day then nothing for 4-5 days. About 3 weeks ago, one of those growls triggered a nasty attack by Aiya that necessitated a trip to the vet for wounds to both dogs’ legs.
Since that incident, we have purchased the Pack Structure DVD and have begun watching and following the suggestions. Our dogs have always been crated but were allowed to roam the house freely when we were home. That’s all changed. Now, they spend all their time in the crate unless going to the bathroom, being fed, or being walked. Since they showed they could be calm submissive in their crates, we have allowed them out of the crates when we are home but with one tethered to me and one tethered to my wife.
Yesterday, a doorbell on the TV caused Riley to start barking which put Aiya into attack mode which, in turn, caused Riley to do the same. Today, I must have gotten Riley too close to Aiya because she stopped and pulled me back when about 5 feet from Aiya and Aiya reacted going into full attack mode and Riley responded in kind. It was all we could do to keep them apart.
We can take them on walks together and they can walk next to one another no problem. Their crates are next to each other and no problems. They are usually ok in the house. We think it might be Riley’s insecurities that trigger Aiya’s attack. As a little back story, Aiya got into a scuffle with my in-laws lab last summer when it gave a similar “leave me alone” growl at Aiya.
Other than slowing down and not giving the dogs the privilege of being out in the house on leash yet, any other suggestions not found on the Pack Structure DVD would be greatly appreciated. We are hoping this is a temporary situation as Riley matures but know full well this could be a pet management issue for the rest of our lives together. As we work on the dogs, we have purchased wire basket muzzles for both dogs for if and when we ever get to point that they have some freedom loose in the house.
Thanks again for any suggestions. I have thick skin so you can be brutally honest and critical. Neither my wife nor I have ever had these kinds of issues w/ previous dogs.
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363583 - 07/05/2012 11:54 PM |
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Not to demean the ladys here cause it's just my observation.
Two males will fight to show "who's boss." often times that can settle down. Especially if you figure out the reasons for the fighting.
Like women in a bar, two female dogs fight to humiliate one another and the war never ceases. They can carry grudges forever!
Don't kill me ladies. I raised two daughters and taught them they could accomplish anything they wanted to...........but wimmins are different. Don't care what Gloria S says! I say viva la difference!
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#363585 - 07/06/2012 12:47 AM |
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They can carry grudges forever!
I resemble that remark
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363586 - 07/06/2012 01:59 AM |
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From a management standpoint, it sounds like your on the right path. Even though there are no issues with the crates being next to each other, I would seperate them, even in different rooms if at all possible. Communication can still be made between the two in close proximity to one another, just because they are not reacting doesn't mean nothing is being said.
With their reactivity to one another, I would also consider NOT having both out of crate at the same time while staying on tether. It would eliminate the possibility that one could in the off chance get within reach of the other, then you need to break up a fight. If they're in seperate rooms and are able to be isolated while the other is out, then your chances of a fight drop drasticly. http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm
After that I would look into a behaviorist to come to your home, and evaluate whats going on. Not a trainer, a behaviorist. There's a big difference sometimes. You need a professional set of eyes to see "in real-time" what is going on. This is a good place to start. http://www.ccpdt.org/index.php?option=com_certificants&Itemid=102
When it comes down to brass tax, we can offer all the advice in the world, but we can't see the subtle communication that's going on. Your best bet is having a professional behaviorist that has dealt with aggressive behavior before, come to your home and see the whole picture. I would also do this in the very near future, because the longer it goes on the harder it is to correct. JMO.
Cassy & Leo enjoying a nap.
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#363595 - 07/06/2012 10:29 AM |
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Like women in a bar, two female dogs fight to humiliate one another and the war never ceases. They can carry grudges forever!
Don't kill me ladies.
Esp when you say a thing like that.
I have known 2 pairs of bitches at least with this issue. And yeah they hold a grudge forever and were super quick to get into it. BUT in both cases like the scenario above, there was no leadership with the subtle sings began.
Don't trigger a fight by getting excited in your correction and don't trigger a fight by correcting way too late! The growl would have been way too late.
One of the pairs I mentioned above included a dog of mine. She hated the neighbor's GSD...this went on for years, each of them going ballistic at the fence, numerous fights (neighbor's fault 100%). Anyway, finally I decided enough is enough. Once my neighbor kept the GSD under control (my dad told him he would shoot her LOL)...I trained my dog to not go after the GSD. She wasn't allowed to even look at the GSD. Eventually she ignored it off lead.
I am not saying eventually put them back together....but you should have peace in your house under your rules. The doorbell shouldn't trigger bloodsport. That's on you. Your corrections MUST NOT escalate or trigger anything....if so you're doing it wrong...it must be CALM and it must be ON TIME, not a millisecond too late. Do not be passive and let them hate each other.
You can also use markers, ONLY reward calm non-interest in one another. Leadership first.
A tired dog is a good dog, a trained dog is a better dog. |
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363631 - 07/06/2012 10:34 PM |
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Thanks for the advice. We did find a friend of a friend that used this behaviorist:
http://www.perfectpoochpettraining.com/
but if anyone can recommend someone in the Phoenix or Tucson area, please let us know. I haven't talked to the guy yet but his website uses the correct buzzwords. I looked at the CCPDT website linked above but it only listed trainers, no bahaviorists.
I moved the crates apart but in the same room. If Riley is left alone in her crate with no one, including Aiya, she gets VERY vocal. The crates are metal wire crates but I previously built wooden sides and a top for each to make them look more like furniture to us and more like a den to the dogs. The two dogs can't make eye contact.
Finally, if this eventually results in our dogs never trusted together, we are definitely prepared to do whatever it takes but hope that this situation has a better resolution. Re-homing would never be an option.
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363634 - 07/07/2012 09:21 AM |
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Cassy & Leo enjoying a nap.
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363645 - 07/07/2012 08:18 AM |
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RE: the behaviorist. His site is very wordy and vague. I'm seeing lots of buzz words but not a lot of substance on the site. He's got specifics on where he grew up, but not specifics on the rescue groups that he now works with.
Doesn't mean that he isn't good, but there is not enough info on his site to make an good judgment call.
I would want a list of references (and would check them out!) before I employed any behaviorist.
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363697 - 07/09/2012 04:24 AM |
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This sounds like a leadership issue to me. I breed and train working GSD's and they are tough as nails. My females had at each other once when they thought I wasn't looking, I convinced them both that this action would trigger the end of they're lives and we haven't had a problem since. The pack leader decides when the pack fights or not. I'm not saying there aren't tough females out there that wont still give it a try but I doubt this is that situation. Usually that's a bred characteristic. The first thing they need to do is fear your correction more than their desire to have at it, then the dog wont key off your correction they'll stop at your correction. I know this sounds a bit "big stick" to some(please understand I'm not advocating beating your dogs) but you will rarely see dogs that love and trust their owner like mine do. They wholeheartedly love and respect me. Just as I love and respect them, however I'm not a member of the "time out" P.C. club and if you watch a video on canine pack behavior you wont see alpha dog asking his pack to get along, he makes them. Some times it takes one BIG correction instead of 1000 nagging negotiations.
WHEN I SEE SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL, I'D BE WILLING TO DIE PROTECTING IT. |
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Re: 2 Female Dogs recently getting into fights
[Re: Stephen Nutt ]
#363704 - 07/09/2012 08:46 AM |
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And I meant to suggest using dominant dog collar on them. Fighting needs a serious consequence, but don't forget timing!!! As soon as there is any signals, let them know it is not tolerated! No yelling, no stress, just calm meaningful correction.
You can still mark and reward when they're good.
A tired dog is a good dog, a trained dog is a better dog. |
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