Hello all...
I've been reading up on everything listed, and tried lots of things, but nothing seems to work. Maybe I'm being foolish, but I'm new to the whole competition obedience stuff, so bear with me...

I'm having trouble getting my GSD to out. She has a lot of prey drive, and loves her tug. I know she knows the command, because I can give her toys that she's not as crazy about and she outs reliably on command, every time. But, when I try it with the tug, she simply won't.

I've tried trading for food, other toys, and I've even tried getting an identical tug and trading it for that, but she knows the difference, even if I manage to get her to out, and give her the other one, her drive seems to be for the one she had first - her interest in the other tug is not as strong (is that weird). I'm afraid to correct her really hard in this situation, because I don't want her to associate the correction with the tug in general, and lose her drive for it, thinking that she just gets corrected whenever she has it...

If I'm being stupid, feel free to let me have it...I'm sure I've done something wrong somewhere, any help is welcome

Is this an adult dog or a puppy in training?

14 months old...i got started late

IMO, I would give her a strong correction and as soon as she outs the tug, kick it away and let her win it back. I wouldn't out her more then once or twice during your training session. Keep it brief and make sure she gets a lot of success and praise.

You have to get into his head that out does not mean lose the prey item, only a pause, most dog get satisfaction from pulling, playing, tugging the prey item, and so if he won't out, you just hold it tight againts your knee, and make the prey item dead, and with the other hand, do a very light correction on his pinch collar, keep doing that until he let go, might take 4 to 5 minutes, but this way, it give him a chance to think, why is this guy nagging me, and allow him to make the right decision to get the reward again, instead of a strong correction that scare the s.. out of him, as soon as he out, do not jerk the prey item away but command bite again immedietly and present the prey item and then repeat the process, after awhile you would wait a little longer before command bite or reward him with a bite, once he understand that out does not means lose, he will out very clean and very fast just to start playing again.
Khoi Pham

Khoi, You make a couple of good points in regards to teaching the dog that outing does not mean he loses the prey item, however I am under the belief as are others that 1 strong correction is better then a 1000 nagging corrections. I personally don't want to wait 5 minutes for my dog to out. When I tell him out, I mean OUT. If the dog's drive is high enough, it will take a harder correction anyway to make your point. Keeping the dog in drive after the out is important. That way the dog doesn't associate anything negative by outing. JMO

John, that was how I trained my pup, I did not want any correction at all with a pup, he does not associate out with "if I don't out I will get hurt" but he associate out with I will get to play again so the faster I'm out he will play with me again."
It might take you 5 minutes the first few days but once he understand the out, you will see a very fast out without any sign of avoidance or scare of expecting a correction. I recently bought a training tape from a well known trainer and I am almost on the same track as his. I forgot that you dog is big, I was playing dead prey with one hand because my pup was small, you might have to hold it very tight against your knee with 2 hands and have someone nag him so he can think of the right decision to make you play with him again, I forgot to mention that you only say out once, but repeat no to let him know that what he is doing is not on the right track to get the reward, once he is out, praised and play a good tug game then play dead with the prey item and out again.
Good luck.

Khoi, Again good point, the difference I think here is the age of the dog. Your method sounds reasonable to me for a young dog, but the question posted was for a 14 mo. dog. A time when I IMO feel the dog can handle a little stronger correction to out. Again, I believe the proper thing to do is to keep the drive up, and after outing reingaging the prey item immediately so the dog doesnt' think about the correction but is in drive to get the prey item back. I'm no expert here, but it seems to work for me. JMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like to see people explore training solutions that don't involve compulsion first. Age isn't really a factor IMO.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
I like to see people explore training solutions that don't involve compulsion first. Age isn't really a factor IMO.

What? Has captain compulsion gone soft? Has Emma really trained him? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


This issue really comes down to which system you choose to follow. I am not big on the use of compulsion to teach something- but this particular method made the out so incredibly clear to my dog- so quickly that we have never had an issue. Conversely- my other dog was taught to out the 'other' way and will rebite, or show other displacement behaviors(the mal tooth chatter- and she isn't a mal!) after the out. Maybe the same thing would have happened had she been trained the Flinks way- but I doubt it. Maybe it was just done wrong- I don't know- I didn't get her till she was 3.5 years old.

Anyway, go with what ever method suits you best. If you do plan to continue with other parts of the Flinks training (such as the retrieve) you will not want your dog to out just because you have stopped moving and you are still holding the item.