hi i am newbie. i would like to know how everyone can tell if the dog is from working lines or from german show lines. Also i have seen ads for dogs that have gotten a sch 3 but then someone said they were showlines.I thought that if the dog was working in schutzhund, it meant it was a working line. Thanks in advance for your help

Hi Paula

Schutzhund was originally designed to be a tool for breeders in testing their stocks working ability. I'm really only new to this aswell but in my opinion it can still be a tool when used by honest, experienced people.It's become more of a sport these days and the dogs that are top schutzhund dogs aren't always necessarily the best working dogs in many professional opionions. Schutzhund requires dogs with extreme prey drive but not necessarily strong nerves, a characteristic essential for dogs working in reaL life. A good trainer is said to be able to title a weak nerved dog in schutzhund which proves that just because a dogs has a title does not make it working quality. All of the schutzhund work can be done in prey drive, where the dog is comfortable and feeling relaxed which reflects a real life scenairio poorly. A working dog needs to be worked in defensive drive also.

If you are loooking for a working bloodline dog or a proven working bloodline go to a breeder who breeds their dogs for real life work such as police, PP, or security. These dogs to me are working dogs. And of course some working bloodline breeders breed for sport too which is fine, it just shows their dogs versatility.

You won't see any working bloodline dogs at a dog show, the dogs there would be either German or American showlines. Breeders who are serious about producing good working dogs don't use these bloodlines because for generations they have been selected for conformation over working ability and many are pretty much useless. You will find that some German show bloodlines can do schutzhund but again this may be done in prey drive, not defensive drive. A working dog begins his training in prey (like it is in schutzhund), then in defense where his stress levels are max and his nerves tested ( again this isn't done in schutzhund if the training is only prey). You can see if showline dogs aren't subjected to this kinda of stuff there is no way of knowing the true working qualities of show dogs. And their abilities are lost as the prettiest dogs, isn't, hardly ever the best working dog.

In saying that it is not all so black and white, there are some show bloodlines that produce good working dogs-they are just so much harder to find.
I hope I explained it alright, do a search on the Leerburg forums and you will find heaps of stuff on the differences between show/working bloodlines.

Katie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

European line dogs for the most part live up to the minimum requirements for breeding set forth by the German German Shepherd Dog association, or the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV).

So you will see German/Euro dogs with Schutzhund titles, BUT within the Euro lines there is still a split between dogs bred primarily for the conformation ring and dogs bred primarily for dogsport and service work.


There is an easy way to get an idea of working lines vs. showlines. Take a look at these two links and the dogs on the lists.


One is the German conformation championship, the other is the German Schutzhund championship.


Oh. . .there is one other easy way to tell the difference. Just about every single showline dog is black and red. They have a sick facination with that color pattern and breed for that coloration to the exclusion of all else. The working lines come in all colors because most good working breeders don't breed for color.


showlines

working lines

VC, in looking at papers only, would it be to much of a streach to say that if a lot of the females have Sch III, that would indicate more working lines? Seem most show lines concentrate only on the males past I and II.

Well I have an answer for that. . .and don't hate me because I'm a bit cynical.

If I thought that those numbers behind the SchH meant something then yes, that would make sense.

Here's why I say that. If a breeder trained and titled their own dogs, having a II or III would be a pretty nice thing on a female. It shows a lot of time and a lot of dedication to the dog. Most breeders have problems raising, training, and breeding from titled females. . .and that's true in Germany as well. I've heard the woes from a few working breeders before. But, showline breeders rarely title their own dogs. They pay someone else to do it. The only difference in the II and the III is the amount they pay and the time they have to wait to breed the bitch. So you'll still see a lot of SchH III showline bitches who are worth absolutely nothing to the breed as working dogs.


So in a showline dog you may see a ton of 3s on the females, but it means little IMO.

I don't always see the pattern, I think there might be just as many females with Is, IIs, or IIIs in either line.

It was just something that popped into my head but your answer makes sense to me. I knew showline titles were cheap. You think your cynical now, wait another 25-30 yrs. I've made an art form out of cynical. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks everyone for your replies. so if there is a black and red pup for sale i should steer clear of it. LOL. no i am not ready right at the moment for a puppy just want to make sure that when it is the time to get one,i make the right choice.

Paula, there's show lines that can work, too. I personally know quite a few, as well as own some. They are great dogs. There's also more to work than SchH. JMO

Tara, can you explain what you mean by "There's also more to work than SchH."

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Megan Bravo, I have shared your sentiments for a very long time, Schutzhund has become the alpha and omega, and has been sourly and despicable responsible for the gradual demise of real working dogs, the Hyena backs with more problems that competency, both medically and emotionally., who needs a dog like that – and they have also ruined the breeds we as police have to use by doing away with courage test, or nerve testing. To some this might seem trivial, but if the female has a natural fear of gun shots, or thunder it gets passed down to her pups, and still this dog titles – high as working dog – who made this possible, it is pure madness? The GSD and Belgium was about even character, now its all about a nice firm steady bite – forget about brawn and guts.. But imo. a working dog is just that working every day to serve and protect, or detect. If any one tells my they have working lines I just crack up. If that dog has not been trained to the levels the police train. Then he is better described as a sport dog. I have seen it how many time, we have dogs here just trained to compete, and the reap the gold medals and super dog titles. But out on the road as much as 60% imo. Are worth less with hang ups and issues. And remember any good agitator cam make a dog look good. Bad guy’s just want to get the h.. Out of their. So we should honestly ask the Schutzhund body to re-define the category “working dogs” so that they may add value, or do away with it all together because it has become a disgrace.