This question popped into my head when posting regarding a different topic. I stated that my dog is a very strong nerved dog, and it takes a great deal of stress to get her to react. I stated it was a blessing, but also a hinderance.

I am wondering how other handler's dogs react to stressful situations. As I stated, I have to be pretty creative to put my dog in a situation where she will actually react because of the stress. I do not press it to a point where avoidance is an issue, but with such a high tolerance, I wonder what the line is. Defense drive training has been somewhat difficult to this point because I am seeing little response from Nika. It is as though she is not threatened enough. I have posted this topic before, and it seems most feel the dog is not threatened enough, or the helper is doing a poor job of acting.....assuming the helper is flawless, what is it going to take without pulling her across that line?

Hey, some dogs just don't have it. They don't perceive threat, thus they don't kick into defense. When a dog has really good nerves and socialization, especially coupled with high prey, you can get a dog whom the helper can't reach, short of putting them into survival mode. And even if you did that, would it carry over once you went back to work that was more "mainstream"? Probably not. It's simply the wrong dog for that particular job.

I am placing her in a completely new scenario tonight. She has been worked very little at night time and when it has happened it is with a helper she knows. Tonight, foreign training ground, and a foreign helper. She is not going to even know the helper is there when we arrive. It is going to be as realistic as possible. I do not think she will know we are there for training, rather she'll initially think we are there for a walk.....you probably know the routine.....it will be interesting to see how she handles it.

Lee, I truly think this dog has it. I think the biggest problem is the helper, and me. I have had a heart to heart with a POST K9 judge and he explicitly said I am the hold up, not the dog. He has had ample time in evaluating her. If I can get a helper to truly play the part of the bad guy, so good that he really thinks he is the bad guy for that time, then we are talking a completly different dog. Atleast I think that is what will happen. Hell, even I have a hard time taking the helpers seriously, and that is pretty much how it has been from the beginning. I guess time will tell. As you know a quality helper makes all the difference in the world. I tend to have a high turnover rate with helpers. They think it is just a matter of letting the dog bite the wrap on their arm.......so much more to learn, and they don't want to take the time to learn about it. If I could just find someone as passionate as me with this work.....it is pretty tough on your own....

It is also possible that the dog is reacting in very subtle but very significant ways, and I am not catching it. She is alert, ears up, forward in posture......yet.....patient perhaps?

Drew,
This is a tough one. Have you tried handler protection drills? SHE may not percieve a threat from the helper but if she sees dad getting his butt kicked she may begin to understand that it is her job to protect you as well as herself. Hopefully she will understand that she isnt the only one threatened and that suspicious people are to be watched or driven away. Scenarios where you engage a fight with the helper in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle with the dog inside and you calling for her help may trigger a response. A car release might be a good idea if she responds well which will give her the opportunity to help you and engage this new threat. Just a suggestion.....Howard

The car scenario has been used several times.....helper approaches car with me standing by the driver door, the dog in the back....helper "kicks my butt" (she goes nuts at this point) she gets her head out the window, helper agitates her also.....she goes even more nuts....helper runs.....dog released....strongest bite out of any work we have done thus far.

Last night I took her to a local park around 9:00. I had a helper approach from the pavillion area. The dog immediatley perked up, ears erect, posture forward, with some whining as she watched him approach. As he got closer and made noises the dog began to weave back and forth with even more whining. As he got within 10 fett of us and continued his threatening gestures she began to lunge a great deal. At that point the helper ran off to a predetermined spot where the wrap was. After abut a minute of the helper being out of sight I let the dog go find him. She seemed confused at first, as though she thought it was time to run free rather than to search, but as she got within 20 feet of where he was hiding she immediately alerted (although somewhat weakly), tracked him down and got her bite. The helper said this training session had bites that were harder and more full compared to last time. We were also using a hidden sleeve, though it was not actually hidden.

I personally think there are signs I am missing regarding her reaction to threat. I am rather new to this so I can't pick things out like most of you. I could tell from last night that she was aware of a threat.....very vigilant.....and when the threat was clear enough to her (that it was not going to go away) she began to lunge to chase hime down, or to get a bite......I am going the right direction with this? It is important to know that when the helper approached from the pavillion he was wearing no equipment...it was just him and his ugly face j/k....she didn't know it was training at that point, atleast I do not think she did.

Drew I had a female 1yr. old RottieX that looked like she just didn't know what was going on, she'd stand at the end of the leash and turn her head side to side or even come back and look at me, (I took that as a sign avoidance and the helper was 15 yrds away). We was testing if she needed a human threat, some dogs don't want to bite rag or tug. This was a no go, so we went back to plan A. I was about give up, she just ain't got it.

I was disappointed and I went back to the prey drive and tie out tug work. Even here she was not seeing the tug as prey. I had another trainer tell me that was familar with this bred, say that I should praise her for the slightest form of awarness, like her ears raising or any slight pull on the leash. I started doing this and she progressed to the point where we could put her on lead and she actually start seeing the helper as a opponent, sometimes bushing past the sleeve snapping at him!!

I was disappointed after seeing and working higher prey drive dogs (GSD) work, they would just take to the stuff like ducks to water compared to this Dog. Now my problem is the clean bite, she wants to try to kill the prey tharshing it around when he holds on or when he release it. I've heard here that just a Rottie or Pit bulls nature to trash on the bite/sleeve.

So I learnt to not compare dogs or people.

Drew,
Don beat me to the punch. He is correct in giving lots of praise for the slightest interest indicated by the dog. I dont know how long you have been doing this but Im going to take a stab at what happened in your last scenario training. It sounds like your timing is a little off. When the helper ran and hid it would have been a good idea to have been yelling commands to the "bad guy" in a loud voice as well as telling the dog to watch him, or whatever you feel is appropriate. She should feed off of this. Also, you may have waited too long to send the dog for the search. She has this high threat resistance level and probably felt that her job was done when the helper went out of sight. She might have performed better if she was released only seconds after the helper vanished and things were still fresh in her mind. Obviously plenty of praise is in order for the slightest positive things that she does.....Howard

I did encourage her to watch him as he ran off, and she seemed to feed off of that, I did not yell at him to stop, however. This would have added to her desire I believe. I will remember that for next time.

I agree that she probably thought her job was done since he ran off out of sight. In similar scenarios, I would release as soon as the helper hid, and it seemed to work better. Also, the dog had the scent of the sleeve to work on as well, and she was able to watch the helper flee from start to finish. I took those advantages away last night.

We have just started tracking the past few weeks, so this last exercise was a definate push. I think I will scale it down a bit as far as how far the helper goes before hiding. Last night he went around 100 yards. It should also be noted that Nika was only able to see the intial direction he ran. I took her to the car specifically so she would not see the general area of his hiding. I wanted to see her reaction.

As soon as I let her go and gave her the command to search, she immediately headed to the pavillion where he originated from. This was also a completely foreign environment and pitch black. I would direct her....she would head that way....then head back towards the pavillion....eventually I directed her far enough that she caught the scent. She was headed West and immediately turned North East......right to him, at about 20 yards out.

The key signs that I saw was her posture.....very forward. Initially it was forward but she downed and watched him as he apppoached from a distance, she remained erect in posture and her ears were slightly forward. As he got about 15 yards out she immediately stood up and the posture was even more forward, to the point she had the leash tight, that was also when she began to go back and forth. At about 10 feet, the lunging started. All this time there was a geat deal of whining, though an agitated whining. At about 7 feet another lunge coming within inches of the helper, and he was told to run off. She pulled to go after him though stopped, and then was told to watch him....watch him....etc. She continued to pull wanting to chase him down, and the posture remained forward and erect. Once he was about 1/3 of the way to his hiding spot I took her to the car. Once we were at the car she continued to try to watch him.......and still whined a bit. Shortly after that I took her back to our original spot, unleashed her and told her to search......and ya'll know the rest.....

Drew, what state are you in? If you have had a POST trainer look at the dog I must assume (not a good thing BTW) you have some access to other people than just this one helper. Perhaps he just lacks what the dog needs, that or the dog just lacks the ability to do the job. Until you get with a experienced decoy or some others that can give you a fair and honest opinion you may just be wasting your time.

Again, what state and area are you in? I'm sure someone on this board could help find you some people to work with.