Hi! I'm a total newbie here, and this is my first post. I've been a horse trainer for many years, and needed information on dog behavior and training. I'm so glad this board came up on my google search; I was dismayed by all the boards that seem to be made up of fourteen year old girls with bleeding hearts and cookbook approaches to training. From my experience with horses, I know you have to read the animal and adjust accordinly; the cookbook approach really doesn't cut it in the long run. I've read much of this site, and as a trainer myself I was pleased to read, among other things, Ed's stance on correcting aggressive dogs. In the horse world, few trainers have the courage to be that up front about the less-than-pretty side of training. When I read that, I knew you guys were the real thing.

Anyway, on to my first question. As I said I'm a newbie to the serious side of dog keeping. I have two dogs that are total pets, a beautiful two year old GSD that flunked out of a narcotics detection program (no doubt for being too 'soft;' a new term for me and a subject for a post at another time) and an eleven year old Corgi who has been a companion since she was a pup. I opted to feed them a dog food that's easily available to me called Merrick's. I use the dry kibble, although they have many kinds. I used to feed Flint River, but started using this one when I could get it delivered so easily with my horse feeds and bales of bedding.

I have a holistic chiro/DVM that's scheduled on my farm once a month to adjust horses and my dogs. I showed him the Merrick's bag, he read the contents and he liked it. He also suggested supplementing with flax oil and coconut oil (for medium chain fatty acids), Prozyme, and Fresh Factors. And sometimes I add ProBi, a probiotic product for animals.

I know in the horse world there can be a tremendous difference between the knowledge of veternarians and the experience of horsepeople who have been there and done that. I'm hoping to take advantage of that same type of knowledge base here.

How do you decide on your dog food? What do you want to see when you read the label or feed tag? I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts and experiences in how you choose rations. It appears that the body of membership on this board is spectacularly experienced. I sit at your knee and wait to learn. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and if you want to see the Merrick's site to get a feel for what I'm using, it's http://www.merrickspetcare.com.

And now I'm going to apologize in advance for any or all stupid questions I might ask. I'm too green at this to be able to distinguish a stupid question from a normal one yet, but I do want very much to learn, and I don't think the quality and depth of answers I'm seeking are available at PetFinder.

Maybe this'll save you a trip on the web. This is the dry dog food I'm feeding. It's made of human grade ingredients. This is what their site says.

5lb. Cowboy Cookout
It's the 4th of July, and to celebrate, your family and dogs have gathered around the table for a cookout. Your prized beef and favorite side dishes are ready to be feasted upon. In Texas, we love beef as much as Americans love apple pie. We hope your dog enjoys this dish as much as our dogs Gracie, Annie and Molly did creating and eating it!

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (Not Less Than) 22.0%
Crude Fat (Not Less Than) 14.0%
Crude Fiber (Not More Than) 3.5%
Moisture (Not More Than) 10.0%

Calorie Content:
3594 kcal/kg - One pound provides 1633 kcal of metabolizable energy, calculated value. (Caloric content calculated using Modified Atwater Method)

Ingredients:
Beef, Oatmeal, Barley, Beef Meal, Whole Brown Rice, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Flaxseed, Potatoes, Carrots, Peas, Dried Chicken Liver, Whole Apples, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Lysine, Guar Gum, Salt, Choline Chloride, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Whole Blueberries, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Whole Clove Garlic, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Dried Beef Broth, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterocococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Natural Celery Flavor, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Natural Caramel Color, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3, Niacin, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Complex, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.

each - $20.03
5ct./case - $100.15


I see that it contains glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, as well as different digestive bacterias; but of course they don't say how much. Would you just assume it's label dressing?

And a big question: Would you let somebody feed this to your dog?

Thanks again for your patience! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Um...no.

I don't feed kibble period, I feed a raw diet, but were I to feed kibble the only ones I would feed would be ones that have no grains in it. Dogs can't digest grains (they don't digest veggies very well either, but they can do it to a certain extent). As of yet, I haven't found a kibble that's grain free, but I'm sure there's at least one. If you really feel you need to feed kibble and can't find one that's sans grains, make sure the grains are at least the fourth ingredient on the list or lower.

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.....Would you let somebody feed this to your dog?.....Thanks again for your patience! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't feed kibble, either. I feed my own version of raw.

I think dogs evolved eating ripe produce (they are opportunistic omnivores) but *very* little grain (which would've been semi-digested, in their prey's stomachs). Many, or most, commercial foods are loaded with grain.

These sites compare commercial foods:

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bestfood.html
http://www.organicpetproducts.com/Interpreting_Pet_Food_Labels.asp
http://www.feedmypet.com/dog-food-comparison.html

Also, if you are choosing to feed kibble and want to eliminate the cereal grains, Google DOGS, GRAIN-FREE KIBBLE. I just did that and actually came up with a few returns, to my surprise.

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......Sounds like you doing just fine. .....Glenn

I wanted to add a small P.S. IMO, the fact that your vet suggested adding Omega 3s (flax oil and/or distilled fish oil are my own choices for Omega-3 sources) and the anti-inflammatory ingredients in Fresh Factors, especially for the senior dog, reflects well on the vet. It's nice when the vet knows something about canine nutrition beyond what the commercial food manufacturers say in their handouts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Dogs can't digest grains...

I just found out thru extensive research that lots of people outside USA feed their dog Grains with meat with no side effects. Yes, GRAIN DIET is not as good as MEAT DIET. Also many countries don't even have all these diff types of "Dog Food", so the question is how are dogs doing in those countries? Very healthy and fit.
I am not saying that we should start feeding our pets "Grains" but Dogs can and do digest Grains very well.

I feed my pup Wellness PLUS RAW MEAT, fruits( sometimes) with , vegetable and few times grains also(2-3 times a month or so).

Rashmi

Thanks so much for so many thoughtful replies. Of course, they provoke more questions. Connie, I'm curious as to what your version of the barf diet consists of, and how you arrived at it. I really appreciate the links you and others provided; the definitions of the labeling laws were very helpful.

I've thought about doing a barf diet before, and sully up every time it comes right down to it. One of the reasons is availability. I live way out in the middle of the freakin' corn, in the heartland of farm country. I have a SuperWalmart about half an hour away, but their meats are so nasty (IMHO) I wouldn't eat them myself. It's become impossible to find meats there that aren't "up to 8% of a solution" or "up to 15% of a solution." The producers are injecting or soaking them with a sodium based solution, and I find them extremely unpalatable. I know they're trying to make for a uniform product and to preserve freshness, but I just can't get past that taste. I don't see why any living thing needs that much sodium, and I hesitate to feed that to my dog.

I buy my meats at an old fashioned butcher shop that I have to drive an hour to reach. Then it's an hour back home. I haven't done a pound for pound cost per calorie comparison; has anyone? I wonder where the breakeven point would be.

And I suffer from the presumption that dogs are a bit omnivorous; I'm with the poster who suggested that they may eat ripe fruits in the wild. But the point about dogs not digesting grains efficiently is well taken.

When I used to get Flint River, I had it mailed to me. There was nowhere local (within an hour's drive) that carried it. Sometimes I'd get low on feed waiting for UPS to arrive, and it always worried me. I've considered getting other pet foods such as the Chicken Soup mail order, but I'm then in the same waiting for the UPS guy bind. I just can't shop at the big box pet stores; it makes me nuts to see these people being dragged all over the freakin' store by these ill mannered dogs, and there's the time issue again. Two hours is two horses I don't work. My feed guys will deliver anytime; I have them on my cell phone speed dial, and even have the owner's private cell phone so I can get them at any time.

Those of you that feed barf diets, how do you make it work on a day to day basis? I see that Ed feeds a part kibble/part barf diet. I don't recall the brand of kibble, but I do remember seeing a very high percentage meat one someplace on this site. Right now feeding the Merrick's is just so darned easy.... *sigh*

And Glenn, yeah; this is an exceptional vet. He has more knowledge of biomechanics and performance than any ten regular vets put together, and does his homework on a myriad of related subjects. I feel blessed to have him. He drives two and a half hours to get to my farm each way, and if I give him enough animals to adjust, he doesn't even charge me for a farm call or mileage. I loff him!

Thankyou so much for all your helpful responses! I really do appreciate it.

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Yes, GRAIN DIET is not as good as MEAT DIET......but Dogs can and do digest Grains very well.

Well, actually, dogs don't digest cereal grains very well. I'm not saying they can't handle them at all, but they do lack sufficient amylase enzyme to efficiently digest a lot of cereal grain, especially the insoluble fiber grains (like wheat), as opposed to the soluble fiber in grains like oats.

Dogs have a short digestive system compared to humans, and they don't need the insoluble fiber to bulk up the stool and "move it along" that benefits humans.

It's controversial whether or not dogs are actually harmed by small amounts of cereal grains, but from everything I have read, I don't think they are. I do think those *small amounts* of grains should be broken down and well-cooked to simulate what would be ingested in the wild (which would be partially-digested grain matter in the prey's stomach).

As Rashmi says, we definitely do not want to feed dogs a grain-based diet. My own opinion is that corn and wheat, two of the top culprits in many diet-related dog issues, don't belong in dog food at all, but there are others who say that small amounts are OK.

Bottom line IMO is that insoluble fiber (most of the cereal grains) is probably not necessary to dogs, and that grains are used to bulk up commercial foods, but that in small amounts, and excepting wheat and corn, they probably do no harm. This is only my opinion, though, and I'm also following the ongoing debate about cereal grains possibly being detrimental to dogs because of the possible strain on the pancreas from trying to keep up with the demand for amylase.

I'm not quoting anyone directly here, so I'm not attributing to any site or book. But if anyone wants great sources of info, PM me. I keep all the good sites' URLs, and book titles, in a file.

I'm *not* a health professional. I had to learn canine nutrition when a dog with 33 severe allergies came to me and I discovered that no vets I could find had any knowledge of it beyond what the commercial food manufacturers gave them (at that time; the situation is improving a little).

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........Those of you that feed barf diets, how do you make it work on a day to day basis?.....

"Search" will give you way more info than anyone can re-type here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/dosearch.php?Cat=&Searchpage=1&topic=

(Those subjects don't all mention b.a.r.f., but the threads all contain raw info. This is a topic that's been covered *very* thoroughly on this board!)

Also, B.A.R.F. is available shipped (frozen), and a great dehydrated raw product is available here from Leerburg (The Honest Kitchen).

Also, for a pictorial:
http://touchmoon.com/dotters/raw/index.shtml

And this site answers every question possible (I think, anyway) about raw feeding:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm
and
http://www.njboxers.com/more.htm

P.S. It helps a LOT to have a freezer. I make do with the one in my 'fridge, but it takes careful planning, and I don't live far from the source the way you do.