Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: andrew harris

As far as the comments regarding me having "a mobile dog park" walking all the dogs together bonds them together and creates harmony amongst the pack hence how I am able to have them all sleeping on the same bed together and even eating together without any issues

The thing is, and this is not the first, second, third, or fourth time this has been stressed, you have responsibility to others besides your pack.

Taking a pack you cannot control if something happens into public places is irresponsible. That's my opinion.

You have been asked what your backup plan is, should something happen. There has never been an answer. There really IS no answer, IMHO.

It's a bad ratio of handler-to-dog for public spaces.

If you express exactly what you mean by "if something happens" I may be able to answer .I have already explained that it is the exception rather than the rule to have my dogs off leash.When walking them together on leash I have encountered,what I consider,pretty much every situation that might cause problems,without problems occurring, other dogs offleash amd on growling and lunging at my dogs and they all simply ignore that occurrance and I keep moving ,cyclist,crowds of people,whatever noise you care to mention,cats,squirrels,pigeons I could go on but none of these situations cause a problem,I'm not overpowered by the pack and pulled along as I have already shown in videos;just to refresh :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT7npxin6WA&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cgd7cdHXY4&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUtGgRraphc&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvV6NBza6GE&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7XbbA94-dg&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

Note the dogs walk only at my side or behind me at all times.

Here is another video of me training together,changing pace and getting them to all come to a stop,the dound is on and note the corrections that occurr and how quickly the corrections take effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YHU5A5Uh-I&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUtGgRraphc&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

I not only take them out altogether but seperately also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fndfLkHULtQ&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32bnq-e2CJ0&feature=share&list=UUKl6g2JcIjvgmhEM1htTQHg

I have never encountered a time when I have not been able to keep them under control when they are all leashed and I hold them in one hand which allows me to step in front of them something you will notice I do often in my videos.Additionally whilst accept the feed back regarding them interacting with other dogs it is obvious to see that they are not dog agressive individually or as a pack,I have posted over 30 videos here and when you consider the breed there is never any sign of grabbing or growling at other dogs.I have spent alot of time getting them all to be tolerant and un-nerved of everything I can.
So if you would be more precise of what sort of thing you are trying to say I will perhaps either learn something or explain what I would do or have already done depending on the situation you describe.

 Quote: Duane Hull

So the truth comes out, eh Andrew?

There could only be one possible reason that someone who thinks lowly of working dogs would join a forum that's operated by a working dog breeder/trainer/supplier.

I am sure you are aware that neapolitan mastiffs are a working breed I just dont think the breed is suitable to bite work because of their size and strength and I dont advocate that sort of training for my dogs because I dont want them to realise their agressive potentials and from a laymans point of view I believe that dogs that are trained to bite work may be harder to control if only from the point of view that as an owner of dogs that have had this sort of training it would illicit a subconcious unease that the dogs could interpret a situation where they think they should go into that pretrained mode.As for my opinion of the site I think it has alot of excellent and useful information relative to dog ownership outside of the dog sport categories and have infact reccommended it to others:

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Neapolitan Mastiff Forum Forum Index -> Neapolitan Mastiff General Forum

Kim I pretty much agree with most of what you say with the exception of:

“One should never underestimate this breed no matter how much you are a pack leader and can control with love and the work put in with obedience, there is something in their psyche that they keep hidden away, are sly and devious and calculating. This comes out when they get overwhelming urge to do something they absolutely know you dont want them to do, they even understand they will be punished when you discover what they did, but can justify to themselves as you were not paying attention to detail. “


This sort of problem is not breed specific it is human specific.

One of the sites on the internet I found most useful was :

http://leerburg.com/pack_behavior.htm

the above link is part of the site I think is appropriate here but the site is full of many useful facts though I think there are many others I could put this is a good basic common sense one.
FARRUGIA
FRATUZZO
Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:58 am



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 144
Location: UNITED KINGDOM

Along with other sites :

http://leecharleskelley.com/top10myths/mythofthepackleader.html

http://leecharleskelley.com/trainingtips/theeyesexercise.html

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and we dont have to always agree with everything but I believe one can gain useful knowledge and facts from different "experts" philosophies.

 Quote: andrew harris

I dont want them to realise their agressive potentials and from a laymans point of view I believe that dogs that are trained to bite work may be harder to control if only from the point of view that as an owner of dogs that have had this sort of training it would illicit a subconcious unease that the dogs could interpret a situation where they think they should go into that pretrained mode.

This is so untrue. The obedience required in bite work does not allow the dog to interpret any situation on his own. Most of the sport dogs I've worked with have more obedience and self-control than any companion dog, and certainly more than the dogs in your videos.
This leads me to believe that you have never owned a dog who was trained in bitework,

andrew , i'd be interested to know what the life of a true , working line , bred for purpose neopolitan mastiff would actually be like .

what would the " work " actually consist of ?

hope this doesn't derail your thread andrew , but when i watch the vids i'm thinking " yeah ? ". i'm impressed by the amount of time you are apparently putting in , but to what end ?

is your goal to demonstrate these particular dogs are capable of these activities , or is your thread intended as a " how to " for neo mastiffs ?

i guess my point is , if these are " working " dogs , i'd like to see what they look like when they are in their element .

Training a dog for bite work is like training a pro athlete what NOT to do. Any dog can be trained to bite. Training it when to bite and when NOT to bite is the game. It's a control issue not an aggression issue. Doing bite work without control over the dog is insane.
To say you don't want a dog to realize it's aggression potential is showing a complete lack of understand what bite work is all about.

 Quote: Duane Hull

 Quote: andrew harris

I dont want them to realise their agressive potentials and from a laymans point of view I believe that dogs that are trained to bite work may be harder to control if only from the point of view that as an owner of dogs that have had this sort of training it would illicit a subconcious unease that the dogs could interpret a situation where they think they should go into that pretrained mode.

This is so untrue. The obedience required in bite work does not allow the dog to interpret any situation on his own. Most of the sport dogs I've worked with have more obedience and self-control than any companion dog, and certainly more than the dogs in your videos.
This leads me to believe that you have never owned a dog who was trained in bitework,

You are absolutely correct I have never owned a dog trained to do bite work and know little about what is involved in doing so.Its just not for me.My dogs are, like many other dog owners ,just companions.The neapolitan makes a very good companion dog so long as they have extensive socialisation .The way I fullfill the working side of them can be seen in some of the videos I have posted where they are leashed.Notice in this video when they return home,(one having carried 9lbs for 3 miles) it is only then that they are allowed to relieve themselves as I structure the walk where they are not allowed to sniff,mark etc.You will notice that they are all knackered after the walk which is 6 miles.

http://youtu.be/8xHO28Ju41Y

 Quote: ian bunbury

andrew , i'd be interested to know what the life of a true , working line , bred for purpose neopolitan mastiff would actually be like .

what would the " work " actually consist of ?

hope this doesn't derail your thread andrew , but when i watch the vids i'm thinking " yeah ? ". i'm impressed by the amount of time you are apparently putting in , but to what end ?

is your goal to demonstrate these particular dogs are capable of these activities , or is your thread intended as a " how to " for neo mastiffs ?

i guess my point is , if these are " working " dogs , i'd like to see what they look like when they are in their element .

Unfortunately in the UK these dogs are often owned as a status dogs In one of my posts I talk about the critiques from judges which consistantly mention the lack of muscle tone of the exhibited dogs,which is sadly due to lack of exercise partly due to owners not knowing how to train their dogs.Neos are a dominant breed and if mot socialised from an early age tend to become dog agressive which means they are not exercised regrularly as they become too hard to handle due to their size and strength.If you were to compare the build of my dogs to most of the "show neos" you will see quite clearly mine are considerably leaner.The neo is often used to create bandogs by crossing them with pit bulls or american bulldogs and other gladiater breeds,this practice is illegal in the UK but is common place in the US.

I try and demonstrate through my own ownership that the neo can be a great companion dog as opposed to one that is trained to work.There are owners that do train their neos to do bite work.As I know little about this side of neo ownership I asked someone who is more familiar with this type of training with neos and below is a video of a reputable owner/trainer of neos in bite work:

http://youtu.be/5TZ44GLv2rQ

One thing I noticed in the video was that the neo is tethered to a fence,not knowing much about this type of training with neos ,I wonder if it is done this way because of the size and strength of the dog,perhaps those in the know could enlighten me.

I would like to add that the breed standard for neos states they are a defensive breed

In many cases its just easier to back-tie the dog. Then the handler is free to use a second leash if necessary.

Back-tying is used to evaluate and control drive in biting dogs. It can be used to put a dog straight into defense, but most sport dog trainers have abandoned the practice of using fight-or-flight.

By tying to the fence, you can control distance, and subsequently you can control whether you work the dog in prey drive or in defense. You can determine whether the dog will even work in prey drive. You can avoid putting undue pressure on the dog, but you can also strengthen prey drive through frustration.

Sport dogs must, at some point, learn to work in prey. This is the side that companion dog owners aren't exposed to and seldom understand..