<img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />I'm in complete agreement <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's funny to think about though.....

I'm not sure I would have wanted to live back then either <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You made a really good point about worrying about REAL problems. When you put it like that, it sounds insane that they're even paying attention to things like cropping and docking <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The crop and dock on a doberman is what makes it a doberman IMO. It's nice that they can put their ears back. Some crops don't enable that.

Greg Myers

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I'm sorry, I thought you had an interesting article up to this point.
You are correct about our freedom here in America, but since I like dogs better than people I think perhaps it should be a decision best made by a dog. After all, they are the ones affected by your "freedom of choice".

I guess you don't like tail docking <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If I had a tail, I would want it docked <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thinking about it, maybe it is a little selfish. I did ask my female's breeder to leave the ears and tail on, but he had already docked all the tails in the litter. Now having a docked tailed dog, I've learned I much prefer it <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Connie Sutherland

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Still, the immediate gratification my dogs might experience with a tray served to them while they lounged on the couch is a pretty funny thought......

I don't think indulging dogs like that once in a while is a bad thing <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> (*disclaimer -If your unquestionably seen as the alpha or person in charge)

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The crop and dock on a doberman is what makes it a doberman IMO. It's nice that they can put their ears back. Some crops don't enable that.

I agree; and Mauricio mentioned how nice it was to be able to see all of the nice features of his pups face so much easier. One of my favorite parts of a Doberman is their face; they are just SO expressive. Their eyes speak to you! And they are able to move their ears any way they chose when posting is all finished, they don't always stand up. Sometimes when they're tired or unhappy about something they have "airplane ears" <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I like to indulge my dogs once in awhile too, but it usually still falls within the rules. For example; I may give everyone a piece of my grilled hamburger, but only when I'm finished with dinner. Or I'll let them watch one of Ed's training DVD's. They LOVE them, especially my young Dobe. Does anyone else's dogs react strongly to them? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Greetings,

I'm glad to see that this thread is focused on it's original purpose.

I agree that ear cropping for Dobermans is purely cosmetic. That weighed heavily on my decision to crop my pup's ears. Until I got my Dobe, I have never seen a natural eared Dobe before. All the Dobes that I have ever been exposed too, have always had their ears cropped.

I can't speak too intelligently about the true history about the Dobe. When I was conducting my research about the breed, I did read somewhere that Mr. Doberman had cropped his Dobes ears to keep people from pulling on his ears. As you all very well know, the doberman was bread to act as a guardian and/or protector.

that being it's original purpose, I can see why cropping his ears make sense. Imagine how much sense it would make if a dog goes to take a "bite out of crime" and his attack is easily thwarted by yanking on his floppy ears.

I believe that cropping his ears is keeping him more in line w/his tradition and purpose. thats my opinion.

Regards,

ROTFLMAO, our uncropped/undocked Doberman would mangle an intruder's hands beyond use if one tried to grab him by the ears -- Duke in guarding mode presents a terrifying visage, as does a Tosa Inu with all its natural appendages in tact !

I'm almost certain that is true. Probably w/many types of breeds, not just the Doberman. However, I believe that he was originally cropped to prevent his ears from being pulled.

I don't know whether that is true or whether pulling on the ears of a doberman would truly have an effect at stopping the attack. What i do know however, is that would never want any of my body parts in the mouth of a Doberman when in attack mode. Cropped or Uncropped. Trained or untrained.

Hey Mauricio, you're right; it's traditional. Each breed has their own following, "feel", traditions, etc. There are people who like Dobermans, and there are Doberman people. The two are not the same. There are different levels of involvement, different values, different knowledge bases and different biases. I think good breeders try to stick to the original intended blueprint of the way a dobe should look and behave (although temperaments were an issue there for awhile <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> In doing so they try to encourage Dobe lovers to do the same. Meanwhile though, dog people who aren't necessarily Dobe people are trying to dictate what should be appropriate for a breed that they aren't even involved with.
For example: What if, all of a sudden, non-GSD folks started trying to push for them to have docked tails? Ew, creepy...I agree; but the point is it's aggravating having "outsiders" trying to dictate the look of "our" breed. I realize that there are some Dobe-lovers out there who like the floppy look; but coming from a breeder's perspective, they are few and far between. Cropping's an expensive procedure, it involves a lot of after-care; yet the good breeders all do it. As anyone who has had to do post-op care for their pup can imagine, it's all kinds of different when you're dealing with a litter instead of an individual. So why go through the trouble? Because the demand is for well-bred puppies with cropped ears. We have the option of allowing customers to choose not to have ears cropped. To date NONE of our customers has chosen that option.

Quote: but the point is it's aggravating having "outsiders" trying to dictate the look of "our" breed. END QUOTE

Come off it Kristel, no-one is trying to dictate anything here (at least, in the USA, not yet).

What is really "aggravating", IMO, is that ear-cropping has been 'outed', by yourselves, as a cosmetic procedure, which may cause the dog only a small amount of pain, but is completely unnecessary for any practical reason.

There are other, shorter ways of describing 'causing unnecessary pain/suffering in an animal which has no ability itself to choose such action'.

Perhaps a reasonable analogy would be the piercing of infants' ears... it hurts, but not a lot, and it makes the child 'look nice', in the eyes of its parents (and some of their misguided friends).
And they don't often become infected <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
(The difference is that ear-piercing can be allowed to 'heal' . You can't easily stick ears back on <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )

Hey Roger; I knew I could count on you <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It's true, no one in the US has dictated anything and in fact this procedure failed to be outlawed in my state. I found it interesting that locally many of the folks pushing for the cropping ban weren't even dog people. What's that about? I have no objection to ear-cropping being referred to as cosmetic, I have no objection to anyone who doesn't share my point of view. What I DO object to is the insinuation that ear-cropping is abuse.

I adamantly agree!! If ear cropping is considered abuse, then what is neutering/spaying considered. That procedure is more intrusive, more complicated and does ultimately effect the animals behavior. It may change his mood, eating habits, etc.

Yet, many agree that is is necessary for a host of reasons: prevents cancer, calms the animal down, prevents over population, etc.

One argument I read stated in substance or in part, "they speak for those who can't speak for themselves". Really, has anyone ever asked a dog if he wanted to get spayed/neutered?

Also, some might say that spaying/neutering is good for the dog because it prevents cancer. It maybe true, but I don't see women flocking to the hosipital to have their breasts removed to prevent breat cancer. Or men running to the hospital to have their prostate removed, etc.

Additioally, the advocates of spaying/neutering say that it calms the animal down. I'm sure there is no tested empirical data that proves this theory. Should we neuter/spay animals to better control them, or should be strive to be more responsible handlers?

Would anyone here advocate neutering/spaying their children to ensure passive, subservant behavior?