Quote: charlie snyder

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The protection tests at National Sieger Shows are always interesting...

They always are . I watched the ones in Pittsburgh. I learned that "pronounced" really means "didn't immediately run away". I saw lots of avoidance behavior, shallow grips, two fang grips and inablilty to heel the ten feet to the blind. All were "Pronounced". These were the V & VA dogs. It was like watching a really bad club trial.

Of that entire field of 50+ working males, only about three or four could actually bite.

I like the free market solution. Post a $500 bond. If the helper runs your dog off, he keeps the money. Dog takes him down, he owes you $50. Have a working dog judge evaluate the exercises. A "Pronounced" dog should be capable of consistently delivering a 90+ point protection routine at a regional trial. Anything less is merely "Sufficient". Eventually, we might get back to dogs like Bernd Lierberg.

However, I have to remind myself that the point of breeding shaggy, red & black, humpy-back conformation dogs is not to create the dog that works the streets, watches your back going into a Afghani cave, or handles 800 sheep. Their purpose is to look good on that designer couch and sell puppies. They do that pretty well.

Ditto with Charlie! I watched last years Sieger show at Purina Farms. It was sad! Out of 150 or so dogs doing the "protection" routine, I would have taken home maybe 4-5 of them. Sad to listen to people in the crowd actually praying their dogs would engage.
Our SchI WORKING LINE dogs at club do better bite work then these IIs and IIIs did.
??"Pronounced"?? OUCH!
It's comming again next week. I've chosen to go to an obedience trial with my dog. Lots more interesting!

DW and I are regular spectators at National and Regional SchH events, as well as Regional and National Conformation Shows.

Having seen plenty of top-level SchH competitors present(e.g. W.Payne, T.Floyd, etc), I think I have developed an appreciation for good SchH work.

I also saw the same thing in PA that Charlie mentioned. His description is accurate. It was disappointing. Even more discouraging, in 2004, at the Canadian Seiger Show in St.John NONE of the females passed the protection test. In other words, no working female class was presented.

I don't think it has to be this way.

We have four German show line dogs, with different owners, in our all-breed SchH training group that do really nice protection work and have ample drive for the obedience work. Now that I think about it, their tracking is up to scratch too.

None would be embarrassed by their dog's courage test. These dogs want to bite the helper so bad it isn't even a question of whether the dog will bite or not. Its a question of how hard, depending on how the dogs were loaded.

At least two of the German show dogs in our group may end up presenting at future SchH3 Nationals. These dogs are the real deal. The owners are disciplined trainers and the dogs are developing into magnificent examples of the German Shepherd Dog. They work great and look great (Red & Black). How can you argue with that?

I believe/hope that what we have seen at past Sieger Shows is more about bad training than bad dogs. That's just my opinion and it is difficult to know for certain. It just makes sense to me to blame the people and not the dogs. If properly trained, these dogs would perform or be selected out by their owners before ever being presented.

The reality that I have seen in our training group is that many show line shepherds, in compentent hands, CAN do nice work.

I have also seen that many breeds (GSD, Malinois, Rotty, Hovawart, Golden Retriever, Schnauser, etc) in competent hands, can do nice SchH work too.

I have also seen lazy GSDs that were from supposed working lines...

IMO, dogs are individuals and should be evaluated as such, not lumped by breed or line.

Gary

http://www.jolietschutzhund.com

I concur with Gary on the training aspect.

We have show line dogs in our club that do pretty decent work. Two were consistent competitors at the national level. Another is a working street dog. At the Pittsburg show, he was one of the three or four that could actually bite. At lunch, the helpers sought out the owner and told him what a pleasure it was to work his dog. The smiling owner later noted that you didn't see them looking up the other owners like that.

Those dogs, however, had the benefit of good foundation work with good helpers. That takes time. Time most dogs destined for the show ring don't get as in, "we sent him to Germany for training and titling".

The training thing cuts both ways. Most working line dogs get pretty minimal ring training. The result is, on show day, they don't present nearly as well as the dogs whose sole purpose is to run around in a circle and look pretty.

In my ideal German Shepherd world, these folks (click on link), the American team that placed 10th at the WUSV, could come home, hose the dogs off, and then place well at the Sieger show. The working test at the show would involve helpers coming out with the attitude of, "I'm going to eat your master and pick my teeth with your bones." Pronounced would actually mean pronouced not some appellation passed out like gold stars after kindergarten nap time.

Working dog folks are resigned along the lines of, "I need the show card to get kore'd. There is no real hope of anything better than a 'G' or maybe an 'SG'. I'm only going to do this once anyway. So, I'm spending that time working on obedience, tracking and protection."

It shouldn't have to be that way. The Universal Sieger program is an attempt bridge the disconnect between the two worlds. It gives credit for accomplisments in the ring and on the field. It needs to be more widely promoted.

I must add that when I first started looking for a GSD I had no idea what I was in for. In my mind a gsd was a gsd was a gsd. The memory I had from my childhood of gsd's apparently no longer fit the bill. I spent months talking to breeders all over the country listening to why one dog was better than another. I was so confused and upset that I almost gave up. It wasn't until I came across a breeder that had a perfect understanding of both lines and chose them according to the mix of both. In my mind, buying a hybrid was the perfect solution for my consciousness. Was it a chicken way out? Maybe so, however I was green as the morning dew on this topic and quite angered that such a beautiful breed had been so screwed with. Why does man have to mess with everything? For vanity? How annoying! Even so, if they wanted to make the dog more pleasing to the eye, why didn't they also train and breed the "pretty" dogs that also fit the breed standard of courage and strength? Furthermore, when I looked around at the gsd's that were bred for many generations in America, I found I was looking at a dog that almost resembled a large Collie. To this day I am still dumbfounded on the tampering of this breed. I hope that my decision to go hybrid will work out to my advantage. I still feel that to have a dog that has that "crazed" look in his eye 24/7 and the fear that he might eat one of my children is not my idea of a good dog. Nor is having to always kennel an animal for lack of control. I too feel it doesn't have to be this way. I honestly can't imagine someone blind or handicap doing well with a true working line dog. Nor can I see someone who does sport/protection working well with a true show prospect. Can't we make good working dogs that are pretty? LOL...why can't we all just get along???!!!

"Hears the whispers of the board saying...ah, ye that are naive"

Edited by RobbinMann (10/09/2007 10:47 AM)
Edit reason: forgot a thought

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I still feel that to have a dog that has that "crazed" look in his eye 24/7 and the fear that he might eat one of my children is not my idea of a good dog. Nor is having to always kennel an animal for lack of control. I too feel it doesn't have to be this way.

It's not this way. All of my dogs are housedogs and for the most part I believe they are indicative of the goal in working line dogs.

No crazed looks. (only mine sometimes)

Kenneling, when done is done for my convenience. I have one dog that does not get along well with others.

Don't get me wrong, Betty. I kennel my dog for convenience also. I'm talking about NEVER being house dogs, ALWAYS being kenneled, only coming out to work. That sounds like a sad life to me.

But your statement was being kenneled for lack of control.

Perhaps I misread your post, I thought the implication was that working lines dogs were so crazed that they would have to be kenneled in order to be safe.

Not my experience at all, and there are a couple of people on this board that have seen my dogs and I think they will agree that they are pretty indicative of working lines.

This is a general reply to many posts above (just to clarify)...

I have seen Gary's male German Showline GSD work, and his protection is very serious indeed. I need not go out on a limb to say that avoidance will never be an issue with that dog! At the end of the day, it's all about the individual dogs and their training. Percentages will not be equal in the different lines because breeders are breeding for different purposes even within the lines themselves. At the end of the day, the only way to know what you have is titling. A dog that can achieve even a SchI is a well rounded mentally and physically sound animal. I know of no other way to prove temperment and work ability.

Sorry, but in general, the work at the seiger shows is sadly lacking. Of course there are individual dogs who are show line & great workers and there are individual dogs who are working line but V rated in conformation. The fact that a dog has a schHI is not proof of the dog being a decent worker. For that you need to know scores, judges, trials, etc..

Those who are working towards Universal Seiger/Seigeren are breeding more balanced dogs.

 Quote: betty waldron

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I still feel that to have a dog that has that "crazed" look in his eye 24/7 and the fear that he might eat one of my children is not my idea of a good dog. Nor is having to always kennel an animal for lack of control. I too feel it doesn't have to be this way.

It's not this way. All of my dogs are housedogs and for the most part I believe they are indicative of the goal in working line dogs.

I agree. My 100% working line, ball-lunatic GSD is a house dog who lives with 2 cats, a Schutzhund dog, an AKC Obedience dog, an AKC Rally dog, and in my eye a heck of a lot better-looking than any roach-backed show line dog. He's also my service dog and can come off the protection field and lie quietly under my table in a noisy restaurant without eating passing children.