Connie Sutherland wrote 01/02/2008 12:24 AM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Will Rambeau ] #172461 - 01/02/2008 12:24 AM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: will rambeau Geoff, I've heard Bernhard Flinks give the puppy evaluation speech around seven times in the past five years and I was lucky enough for him to have evaluated the litter personally that I got Fetz out of. May I ask if he evaluates the whole litter and you pretty much choose the one you like? Like "Good litter, go for it"? Or more like "This one." Theoretically.
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Will Rambeau wrote 01/02/2008 10:02 AM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #172509 - 01/02/2008 10:02 AM
Will Rambeau Moderator Reg: 01-25-2003 Posts: 5983 Loc: Idaho Offline	It was Todd's litter out of Dar and the Leerburg bitch Mara - The entire litter was evaluated and from the score he was the puppy that needed a stronger handler. So I was basically "assigned" that puppy , whom I named "Fetz". And the rest, as they say, is history....... A good example of an experienced handler ( me ) trusting the breeder ( Todd ) and the selection process ( Bernhard ). The Fetz dog: http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/79673/page/25
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Debbie High wrote 01/02/2008 10:59 AM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Will Rambeau ] #172514 - 01/02/2008 10:59 AM
Debbie High Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2003 Posts: 704 Loc: Offline	Sorry to get so far away from the OP question but... my thoughts are that there are puppies that fall in the middle of the spectrum with similar temperaments and drives. Is this where the "art" part of being a breeder comes into play? Not to mention, experience and knowing the history of the lines of both parents? Is it safe to assume that the pups at the opposite ends of the spectrum are the easiest to place? I too, have a soft spot for Rotties, but, will probably never own one again. Love my Mals! Debbie
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Will Rambeau wrote 01/02/2008 11:38 AM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Debbie High ] #172519 - 01/02/2008 11:38 AM
Will Rambeau Moderator Reg: 01-25-2003 Posts: 5983 Loc: Idaho Offline	Well, all litters are a bell-shaped curve. As long as there's more than one puppy.... But *all* ( and I mean all ) breedings are a crap shoot. You can breed two fine, proven breeders and still end up with a substandard litter. You do what you can to stack the deck - study your genetics, test your stock and still, occasionaly, you get a bad litter. Breeding is a science, but yes, it's an art form also. And it's also a gamble - when you're dealing with living things who have so many varibles going on, there is a degree of randomness ( read "luck" ) involved. As far as the opposite spectrum puppies being easiest to place, I've never found that to be true. My experiences were more like: "Ok, who wants the crazed, highest drive puppy from the hard-core working dog litter?" *crickets chirping* The Fetz dog: http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/79673/page/25
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Debbie High wrote 01/02/2008 01:33 PM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Will Rambeau ] #172533 - 01/02/2008 01:33 PM
Debbie High Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2003 Posts: 704 Loc: Offline	"crickets chirping" and fingers drumming and let's not forget the drum roll.... I guess when you add up all the variables and the gambles and yes, luck involved, then throw in whether the pup is truly going to fit the handler it truly is a crap shoot at best! Thanks for you response Will. Debbie
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Geoff Empey wrote 01/02/2008 02:01 PM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Debbie High ] #172536 - 01/02/2008 02:01 PM
Geoff Empey Webboard User Reg: 02-07-2007 Posts: 596 Loc: Ottawa Ontario, Canada Offline	Quote: Debbie High Thanks for you response Will. Yes Will that was pure gold. Also sorry to the original poster for hijacking the thread.  Quote: Will Rambeau The number one response will be a calmer, focused dog( this is the type that Bernhard likes to trial with ). The number two response is equally as good, but indicates more of higher drive dog with dominant traits. So it becomes: Do you want that golden middle, focused dog for points points points! Or are you willing to work the higher drive dog and put up with the dominant quirks for the possibly super dog finished product ( but risk the problems entailed with a harder to handle dog ) So it's the classic equation...risk vs. reward. So a handler needs to look at his own skills and resources and decide for himself. Does that help to make sense of it? Yes that makes tons of sense, and funny you say my dog as an adult is just like what you describe. But I was an inexperienced handler, from the frying pan into the fire so to say! It's still a uphill battle working her drive but it's finally showing dividends now that I have figured some things out along the way! My French Ring coach has really helped me to figure out for myself how to channel her drive. Without his guidance the last couple of months (teenage dog) would've been hell.  Quote: Connie Sutherland And besides risk vs. reward, might some people want to factor in energy level, and can they do it with #2? Not even necessarily managing the dog, but keeping up with the dog? People who are, say, pushing 60? Theoretically. Tell me about it .. Hats off to that Charlie guy who invented the Chuck-it. Without that piece of kit I don't know how I'd survive disability and all. Looking back on it. Would I have done it different if I knew what I knew now? Probably not ..
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Angela Burrell wrote 01/02/2008 02:50 PM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Geoff Empey ] #172546 - 01/02/2008 02:50 PM
Angela Burrell Webboard User Reg: 05-10-2006 Posts: 2273 Loc: Ontario, Canada Offline	The thing about the Bernhard Flinks puppy test that is posted on this site is that there is no explanation of how to score it. It is just basically a list of possible responses to a test, and only a couple of them even mention which are desirable responses (like the laying on the back test). Then there is a link to the "score sheet" with no mention of how to get a score in the first place, or how the scores should be interpreted. With no numbers or ranking of the puppy's responses, how are we to fill in the score sheet? I had a rescue litter that I did these test to but I could not interpret the results, other than that they were "good... I think"
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Geoff Empey wrote 01/02/2008 03:09 PM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Angela Burrell ] #172550 - 01/02/2008 03:09 PM
Geoff Empey Webboard User Reg: 02-07-2007 Posts: 596 Loc: Ottawa Ontario, Canada Offline	Yes Angela that is what triggered my query as well. Will's explanation helped for that one part but it still doesn't make interpreting the whole test a black and white explanation. Though my curiosity is satisfied for the most part, as I don't see myself getting a pup for a long time now.
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Steve Patrick wrote 01/02/2008 03:13 PM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #172552 - 01/02/2008 03:13 PM
Steve Patrick Webboard User Reg: 06-03-2007 Posts: 495 Loc: Englishman, living in Belgium Offline	Connie I would certainly Put My 'Fred' in the Number 2, without Question on that and you can add seven years to the 60 you mention, and can i keep up with him, just about, but i can tell you it keeps you on your toes so to speak, never a dull moment with a Dog like that, but its a lot of fun and keeps you fit
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John J. Miller wrote 01/02/2008 03:55 PM Re: Reputable Breeders in/around the GTA? [Re: Angela Burrell ] #172560 - 01/02/2008 03:55 PM
John J. Miller Webboard User Reg: 05-09-2007 Posts: 268 Loc: Chicago, IL Offline	When I saw Bernard evaluate a litter he did not really "score" either puppy, just mentioned what the pups would be good for after conducting the test. It was very interesting and informative, just like the rest of his seminar. That man has forgotten more about dog training than I will probably ever learn. To have that knowledge base, street AND competition experience yet still be willing to share almost everything with others makes him quite unique. He is one of the nicest guys I've met. John
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