Quote: connie sutherland

I imagine (could be wrong) that you may be sending anxiety down the leash too as you see something in the distance or hear a noise, waiting for his reaction. That's when you must be the most "lalalalala this is calm and pleasant!" of all.

He actually notices this stuff much better than me. I'm so focused on playing clown with him that I don't even know it happened until he stops to fixate.

Somebody in the heeling thread suggested using a wood spoon with peanut-butter to keep focus on yourself. I'll give this a try, allowing him to have a lick at it now and then. This is basically taking the "carrot on a stick" approach, but if it allows him to enjoy walks rather than feel like he must be on guard duty the whole time, then so be it!

Sorry, I didn't check this sooner and thanks for your replies. Ok, here is some more details about my dog...
We have been doing marker training at home (as I have no yard yet-but will be moving in a few months so that should help). He knows Sit, down, stay, come and crate at home. I started training him outside and he is doing ok, although it seems like sometimes he doesn't remember a lot when we are outside, which I know is normal with distractions so I will keep training.
Like I described he whines and tries to get away when we are PASSING the other dogs, but if the dog is in front of us, coming towards us, he pulls me TO the dog, his ears pop up and he starts barking and whining (not sure if whining is from corrections or what). When the dog gets closer and closer he goes more crazy and I sometimes have to pull him up off his front feet...that sometimes doesn't work either. From that scenario you would think he is just an aggressive dog so I don't want to test how 'social' he is with other dogs for now because I'm afraid he might bite. When I'm able to control him better, if the dog is further away and not coming towards us he whines, keeps looking at the dog and then pulls to pass asap and keeps whining when we pass. So as you can see this is very confusing for me as I don't know if he is anxious or aggressive.
As to marker training and getting his attention around other dogs...outside it's impossible without correction. I get his favorite treats (he goes crazy for them at home) and he will eat on walks but only if there are no distractions. Sometimes he will even take it in his mouth and spit it out!
The reason why I got the e collar is due to the fact that when we are outside he doesn't seem to understand some commands under distractions and due to the 'aggression/anxiety' toward other dogs. We also have 2 cats at home and I've been keeping him on a leash at all times but it's getting harder to do so -I think e collar might work better and faster. My cats are afraid of him and he stares a lot at them. At the beginning he tried to chase them but with strong corrections I was able to stop him from doing that. I still can't trust him around my cats though as who knows what he might do. Right now I'm trying to have him not look at them at all so I correct for looking, but I don't want to have him wear the prong collar ALL day either. If we are leaving one room and going to the next and one of my cats is sitting on the way to the next room, Lucky tries to pass him as soon as possible (like he does outside with dogs, but doesn't whine at home) but if the cat is sitting somewhere, he sometimes tries to go toward the cat to sniff him as if he was curious.
Sorry for this long description, but it's a complicated thing to explain. Connie, so do you still think I should not use the e collar for now and concentrate on React? I will search that word right now and see what comes up.
Thanks a lot

 Quote: olenka barry

..... so do you still think I should not use the e collar for now and concentrate on React? ...

Yes, I do.

I would order this video: http://leerburg.com/318.htm

Then I would re-think the whole sink-or-swim training the dog is getting. He has not been proofed for distraction on your commands. Without some patient and extensive focus and obedience work (marker work), and then proofing against distraction very gradually, it's not at all fair to expect the dog to be the same biddable animal outside among a zillion distractions that he might be in the kitchen. It's not even fair to think that he understands the command. (If we always command "sit," say, in front of the sofa, then "sit" to the dog means "sit in front of the sofa." It has no comprehensible meaning out on the sidewalk. Just one small example.)

When you proof for distractions and venue, you do it bit by bit. That is, you don't teach "watch me" in the back yard and then assume that it will hold up with dogs all around unless you have proofed against that distraction -- desensitized your dog to them.

Please post back with specific questions, because we don't know what your training level is, what you have done so far, etc.

 Quote: olenka barry

So as you can see this is very confusing for me as I don't know if he is anxious or aggressive.

And yet you are considering correcting an anxious dog for being anxious. You see why the reaction was "foundation work."

Connie, thanks for your suggestions. I guess I assumed that if he was doing good with marker training at home he would understand the commands outside too and mind me. I guess I need to reteach him these commands outside and not punish him for not following them just yet.
With the anxiety/aggression part, Ed mentioned several times on all 3 videos that I own, that if the dog is being aggressive towards other dogs, that it is not appropriate pack behavior and you should correct him very hard and not praise afterwards. In Lucky's case, it seems that sometimes he is being aggressive and sometimes he is being anxious. Last night, he suddenly took off running towards a puppy being walked and he was able to break free of his leash. Lucky bit the puppy before we were able to catch up to him to pull him off. Thankfully, the puppy seems to be doing ok with just a minor puncture wound. In this case he broke free of the leash so fast that I don’t even know if there was barking or whining while he was attacking the puppy. I have read Ed’s article on chow mixes and it scared me to think that I might have an aggressive dog.
I am now thinking that I need to distinguish between when Lucky is being aggressive and when he is being anxious so that I can correct him when he is being aggressive and positively distract him when he is anxious. Does this sound like a good approach? I think what Frances said about the wooden spoon with peanut butter is a great idea…I think it would work on Lucky too. I’m also not sure how to really differentiate between aggression and anxiety…if he whines it’s anxiety and if he just barks he is aggressive?
As far as the e-collar, I have now watched the video twice and I am thinking that I will limit the e-collar to home to teach him to ignore the cats. I plan on using the e-collar outside for commands once Lucky is more relaxed, as you suggested.

You cannot have the dog outside off-lead! Wrap the leash around your hand.
"Able to break free of leash" is no different from "unleashed dog."

I think something wasn't clear enough: The dog is not ready to be walked near strange dogs. So "distinguishing between anxiety and aggression" are really not your big goals right now.

Doing marker work with the dog away from all distractions, and then gradually adding either small distractions or a minor change in venue as the basic obedience and focus improve -- these are your immediate goals. No strange dogs. You say that he "forgets" outside. OK. Start in one room. Move to another room. Move to a spot by a locked screen door. Then the back yard. Then the back yard with a distracting 2nd person. Then with a dog he knows sitting on the porch. See where I'm going?

On the street, on lead, for now, I'd walk a route that has few or no dogs, and if we passed one after all, my dog would have ZERO opportunity to gaze, to focus, to get anxious, to stare -- because we'd have been long past. Calmly, you in control, marching on by.

I sure wish we could see the dog when he is being "either anxious or aggressive," and the puppy incident is worrisome, but regardless, the suggestions I'm making would be my plan.

What did you do after the puppy-chase/nip?

Have you considered professional eval and help?


All JMO. I'm sure you will get other answers too.


P.S. I just re-read, and I sound brusque. No no. It just seems that you have a potential problem that you maybe think that you can fix with equipment more than foundation work (like lots of folks). But if you back up and start over, even with a breed that can often be challenging, and get the focus and obedience so that they are great, many of the problems will fall away, and those remaining will be better dealt with.

Oh, and where are you in basic ob? Are you doing marker work?

Connie, like I mentioned I am doing marker work a lot, three times a day, inside and outside and he is getting better and better. If I could, I would be walking him somewhere where there are no dogs and when I have more than a half hour to walk we do drive to a place where there are no other dogs or people.

For now we live in a an apartment complex with dogs EVERYWHERE (it's a dog friendly complex). There is one next door, across the hall, upstairs and downstairs so it's hard to even leave the house without seeing one, unless you go really late at night. I will be moving in 3 months so I'm sure it will get better then.

I know that I'm supposed to slowly introduce distractions, however it's impossible in a place where everywheare you turn there are dogs. Even in my apartment you can hear them barking outside sometimes and Lucky whines then too and looks at the door.

For now, I'm trying to avoid dogs as best as I can by crossing the street, etc. After Lucky bit the puppy, once we got to him (few seconds later) we strongly corrected him and took him home right away.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I see what you mean. One thing you might practice is keeping your own anxiety out of your mind so it does not travel down the leash to your dog. Take a breath, stand up tall, and march the dog calmly out the door and past the others.

When you cross the street or change routes, I'd be very sure that I did this in a calm manner, with no overt connection to the other dog(s).

And when your dog whines indoors at hearing a bark from outside, that's a perfect time to demonstrate that the barking is nothing to pay attention to. Ignore it, and even take the opportunity to initiate a short and upbeat marker session.

Some of the dog's reaction to other dogs is going to be influenced (for good or ill) by your own. Your unbreakable attitude about strange dogs being nothing to even think about, never mind getting worried or excited about, will inevitably affect your dog. I'm not saying that he will become you, but you would be amazed at what a huge amount of our emotion (especially fear) goes straight down the leash to infect our dogs. After all, we are the ones in charge. If WE are anxious, there must be something to be anxious about.

P.S. There are lots of folks here with experience in this area, and I think that you will get more responses.

One of mine came with a lot of anxiety (and an eardrum-piercing bark) around any other dog even walking by, and the most pronounced improvement came with getting his focus on me. I know that it sounds awfully indirect, but it had the fastest effect.

I understand that you are surrounded by strange dogs outside, but even inside, you can do lots of work with the dog. Even practicing the recall from one end of the apartment to the other and then rewarding lavishly -- even that is a big step towards getting the dog's attention on you. YOU are where the fun is, where the fabulous treats are, and also where the safety is. You can teach "leave it" indoors (again with lavish rewards), too.

All day, every day, you can reinforce the perception that focusing on you is always in the dog's best interest.